Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby WarpGirl » Tue May 04, 2010 11:16 pm

OMG I'm gonna faint, the legend Rigil Kent himself. Why oh why did it have to be me? OK as to whether we watched the same show... Um I think so. Sometimes I'm not even sure what I watched after hanging around here. :lol: Truth be told I missed the "oil painting episode" and a few others. As for the virginity thing, well it was never directly stated you're right, it was implied though, but frankly a lot of things would make even less sense if she wasn't a virgin. And not that I'm a guy or anything but how can a guy not know he had sex with a virgin? Oh who am I kidding 99.999999% of everything about ENT didn't make sense. As for the exploration vs. experimentation I didn't hear an implied it is a good analogy in her tone, and I didn't see a crushed ego on Trip's face. Sorry I just didn't. Like I said he didn't even know he was in love with her yet. He admitted that in Home. I agree their communication skills were non existant in any shape and form, as well as, mature behavior for two adults.

I will cheerfully admit she broke his heart many times starting in E2 and on. I will not admit Trip is a saint, for one very important reason... He's had relationships before he's been there done that (literally) and I have to presume he thought he truly loved at least one woman he was with. So when that ended it could not have been good. But somehow he took a risk and found another woman to try with. Yet, he could not take the risk of telling her exactly what he wants while still letting her jerk him around. Yeah that makes sense. She's hot, he doesn't say anything, she's cold, he hurts, and then she's hot again and he says nothing. That's self-inflicted. Maybe I'm just a girl, or a completely warped human being. Just look at the name I use. You know the irony, I'm on ff.net about to start your series. How's that for weird.

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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Pegmumm » Tue May 04, 2010 11:25 pm

Rigil Kent wrote: T'Pol was terribly, terribly high maintenance and most men would have run away screaming, no matter "how nice her bum is."

Most women too... I'd have run as far and as fast as I could, no matter how good looking the gluts were.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Silverbullet » Tue May 04, 2010 11:27 pm

Warp girl, I sort of doubt if a vulcan female has a Hymen. so how would trip know if she was a virgin or not unless when the made Love the first time she told him that she was chaste. Just a point
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby WarpGirl » Tue May 04, 2010 11:31 pm

Oh God, my father tells me I'm obscenely high maintenance constantly. Ouch! Oh well it's official I'm a freak, I wouldn't run. Sometimes the good in someone is worth their flaws. I mean look at my sig. Love isn't supposed to be easy, if it was then it wouldn't be so valuable. But you have to be willing to work and fight for it. What really ticks me off is that we never once saw either of them decide to work and fight for it, all we got was Bound.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Aquarius » Wed May 05, 2010 12:10 am

Rigil Kent wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, WarpGirl, did we watch the same show? Ninety-five percent of the issues TnT had revolved entirely around miscommunication - he said one thing, she perceived it a different way, and vice versa. Look at how offended she got when he made the old painting comment which was obviously intended to be a compliment on her looks. They were never on the same wavelength yet you seem to believe that Trip had some sort of magical Vulcan translator on hand despite the clear evidence to the contrary. I don't get it.

As a guy, I'm going to have to go with the majority here. Trip was pleased, almost smug when he joined T'Pol at the table and she unloaded that direct hit to his ego - she said 'exploration', he heard 'experiment.' More importantly, he probably heard things in the comment that weren't intended. She said "I wouldn't use that term" and he heard the unspoken "but it is a good analogy." For that matter, she didn't exactly correct his misconception because she promptly jumped to the "are you getting emotional" comment - which Trip is going to know is perceived as a negative thing in Vulcan culture. Everything he heard indicated that she was regretting the whole thing, which any guy is going to take as a blow.

The way I see it, you're assigning Trip knowledge that he has no way of knowing. He was the first to (literally) offer her the hand of friendship and she turned her back on him. He is, in canon, never told about Tolaris' attack or the Pa'nar or the truth about her past (the Fullara), all three of which seem pretty important elements about her life, despite basically telling her everything and anything she wanted to know about him. Throughout season 3, up to this point, yes, they are shown to be getting closer and more comfortable with each other but, as "Harbinger" points out, they aren't talking about emotional subjects with each other (since he told Cole about Lizzie.) Until she makes the first move, Trip has no idea that she's actually attracted to him - witness his more than surprised expression right before she pounces and the expression when she drops the robe.
If she was just using sex for stress relief she could have chosen anyone.

Uh ... no, she couldn't. Archer is her commanding officer, Reed is a junior officer. Although she holds no technical rank at this point, they made a point of establishing in the previous seasons that her rank is equivalent to Trip's (even if the position is superior.) Sex with any of them complicates the situation almost as much as it complicated what she had with Trip.
He has imperical proof by her jealousy of Amanda Cole.

He has empirical proof that T'Pol reacted because of this fact and, based entirely on her reaction during the Morning After, it's also logical to presume that he (accurately, it appears) also suspects she's regretting it. That's why he started to backtrack and cover his butt - the VNP comment after the fact? Well, that was, as some have stated, the producers wanting their cake and eating it too. In real life, most guys would have thrown up their hands and tracked down the hot MACO to get the wildly inconsistent Vulcan out of their system.

And to the remark that he never told her what he wanted, well why would he? She'd already stomped on his ego already and then later, dragged him to Vulcan so he could watch her get married. The one time he did start to talk about "them," she held up the Kir'shara and told him she didn't have time for "them."
He might not know its love but she did give him something.

Yeah, she gave him hot sex and the the morning after brush-off which is a serious ego blow. Flip the genders and tell me you wouldn't be offended. "Hey, thanks for last night, T'Pol. I've been wanting to sex up a Vulcan for a while now and you really came through." That's basically what she told him (run through a Guy translation matrix.)
But most importantly he knows her, he knows it was her first time

Fanon. There is absolutely no canonical evidence indicating that this was A) her first time, or B) he had any knowledge that it was her first time. He knows (from "Fusion" and Kov) that Vulcan males are driven to mate every 7 years, so again, it's logical on his part to presume that she isn't a virgin, particularly since he's still thinking in human terms (which was an ongoing problem of his.) In fact, one could actually make a decent argument that it wasn't - in season 1, she had some rather interesting advice to Phlox about the doctor getting involved with a human (Cutler) that could be construed as her speaking from experience. Do I believe that to be the case? No. But that doesn't negate the fact that you're assigning Trip data he doesn't actually have.
Trip is not a Saint!

No, he hasn't performed three miracles that I'm aware of, but in terms of relationship, yeah, he kind of is. T'Pol was terribly, terribly high maintenance and most men would have run away screaming, no matter "how nice her bum is."


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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Alelou » Wed May 05, 2010 1:04 am

WarpGirl wrote:...I didn't see a crushed ego on Trip's face. Sorry I just didn't.


The defense admits into evidence ...
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Seriously, you can't see pain here? He didn't even look this bad when she was getting married in Home.

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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Rigil Kent » Wed May 05, 2010 1:07 am

WarpGirl wrote:OMG I'm gonna faint, the legend Rigil Kent himself.

Wait ... I'm a legend? When did that happen? And how much does it pay?
Truth be told I missed the "oil painting episode" and a few others.

That might actually be an issue then, if you're missing the context of some elements.
And not that I'm a guy or anything but how can a guy not know he had sex with a virgin?

She's not human. Do Vulcan women even have a hymen? For that matter, I've read of women who had their hymens broken prior to having sex the first time (horseback riding, for example.) Mmm ... I like that word. Hymen. Hymen. Hymen. :P
He's had relationships before

Yes. Three. And they all ended badly. ("Breaking the Ice.") Given his age and his apparent attractiveness (according to you ladies), that's actually not very many, which says something in and of itself, does it not?
I have to presume he thought he truly loved at least one woman he was with.

Not enough data to accept that as true or not. It's an assumption, and we all know what that means.
But somehow he took a risk and found another woman to try with. Yet, he could not take the risk of telling her exactly what he wants while still letting her jerk him around.

I'm basing my reactions to what was on screen, not a theoretical or a guess about his relationships. We don't have any idea why those three relationships of his crashed and burned, but one can definitely hazard a guess based on Trip's inability to tell when women are attracted to him (Ah'Len - took telepathic connection, the Oasis chick, Fishstick, Cole, and even T'Pol) that he isn't good at picking up nonverbal body language (doubly complicated by the fact that T'Pol is Vulcan, not human.) Trip was great in being there for other people, but when it came to telling them what he wanted (T'Pol, Archer, et. al.) he kind of sucked. Factor in that he's got to work with her on a daily basis - I had a failed relationship at my previous workplace and it totally screwed up everything; not sure which of us was happier when she got a job offer out of state - and the fact that she was pretty skittish about reciprocating ... look at "Home," and how she responded when he asked what she'd told her mother about "them."
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Alelou wrote:Seriously, you can't see pain here? He didn't even look this bad when she was getting married in Home.

Actually, I'd argue he looked worse.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Aquarius » Wed May 05, 2010 1:20 am

Alelou wrote:
WarpGirl wrote:...I didn't see a crushed ego on Trip's face. Sorry I just didn't.


The defense admits into evidence ...
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Seriously, you can't see pain here? He didn't even look this bad when she was getting married in Home.

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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Alelou » Wed May 05, 2010 1:30 am

Mmm. Well, maybe worse.

I think he still has that "I'm still open to you fixing this" plaintiveness on his face in Harbinger. For some reason that just seems sadder to me.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby pdsldl » Wed May 05, 2010 2:14 am

No. In Home he looks lost and hopeless. He's out of chances to fix anything.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby honeybee » Wed May 05, 2010 2:39 am

Even though the plotline of Home frustrates me to no end - one of the gems I find in the episode is Trip's willingness to let T'Pol go. He is the only person in that episode, including T'Pol, that listens to her and respects what she wants, even if it is antithetical to his own instincts and desires. He proves to be the one most worthy of her by respecting her choice and respecting her culture, which he doesn't fully understand.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 6:44 am

He looked the same way to me ever since he found out about Lizzy's death in Season 3. To me he looked pretty typical, no sleep, over worked, over stressed clinically depressed. Look am I seriously offending anyone here, I'm not joking, I'm really asking. I feel like this is a court case with only eye witness accounts. I understand what you all are saying and I'm not saying any of you are wrong. But I see things in a very different way sometimes. I'm nuts I admit it. But that doesn't mean I don't do as much research as I can to make as accurate a statement as I can.

I'll concede that there is no direct statement that T'Pol was a virgin (although she didn't seem like the T'Pring type). But speaking as a girl if she had been "active" well she sure didn't know what she was doing. And really, who could she have been with? She was betrothed to Koss at 7, what Vulcan guy is going to sneak around with someone's fiancee and risk getting killed in a Kali'fee for youthful folly? Um not a sane one, Tolaris would. It's pretty obvious Trip is the only human, so whose left? Sometimes deduction without a direct statement is still correct.

I'll even say that maybe Trip got burned in every relationship he ever had in his entire life, but somehow that doesn't match to me or why is he a flirt? Because seriously he is a flirt. Just a little. So maybe he broke a few hearts too. No proof he did but no proof he didn't either.

As to you being a legend Rigil Kent well dude in this fandom you are, you have been since I found HoT about 4 years ago. You named Hess Anna and now her name is Anna. You created a piece of fanon! I believe you should get paid! And I think its because your like a sort of ghost, a kindly one it seems but you come out of thin air and bang! I'm just shocked you felt the need to bang little old me. I am less then nothing here. I do know your website but all those pretty pics are distracting. Too much eye candy! Yes I am one of those who believe in too much of a good thing. Thank you for commenting. And if you think I'm a total loon that's OK I do to. You made people here very, very, happy by making your point with me. Rock on! :thumbsup: I am trying to catch up on the 10-12 episodes I missed. Unfortunately the TV schedual never works out. I even saw *the_abomination*, but I can never find Home. <crys>

PS. If I ever write Hess her name is Suzy. Sorry, I just want Trip to call out "Hey Suzy Q, where are you? Get my relays back online!" Yeah I am a smartass, but hopefully not a cruel one.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Transwarp » Wed May 05, 2010 7:07 am

I'm okay with virgin T'Pol or experienced T'Pol, whatever the story needs. If I was forced to decide, I'd have to agree with WG and say T'Pol was probably a virgin, based on my personal interpretation of the available evidence.

I also have to agree with RK about how Trip would feel about T'Pol's rather clinical morning-after analysis...
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 7:12 am

You know we mere humans are odd creatures, get a group of us together show us the same event or even an image, and no two people will describe exactly the same thing.
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Re: Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

Postby Asso » Wed May 05, 2010 11:08 am

Transwarp wrote:I'm okay with virgin T'Pol or experienced T'Pol, whatever the story needs. If I was forced to decide, I'd have to agree with WG and say T'Pol was probably a virgin, based on my personal interpretation of the available evidence.

I also have to agree with RK about how Trip would feel about T'Pol's rather clinical morning-after analysis...

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