Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

[Asso]

There is a great difference between what seems comic and what IS comic. And as for the sense of humour... well, I don't think I am without it, but in regard to that scene (and... ahem... also in regard to Harry and Sally )...

[WarpGirl]

I don't think it was comic or dramatic. I think it just was. Like I said the Trip I saw wasn't all broken up about it. Disappointed yes. But like I said the circumstances they were in (you know the possible anhiliation of the human race) creates a lot of stress. Why do you think Hayes and Reed beat each other to a pulp? People do crazy things when stressed. Me I tend to listen to 1 song about 10,000 times. Yeah nuts. So I don't see it out of the realm of possibility that Trip could say...

OK Ouch! Well it's not like she's ever done this before. This whole situation is insane and we still may die. No wonder she's been a little off lately. OK she's stressed and was desperate for relief, I get that. It's not the right time and probably best we don't do that again... For now... I'm not exactly sane myself. Hey at least she cared enough to trust me, imagine if she went to Phlox.

[pdsldl]

But Vulcans don't fear death and I don't see Trip thinking she's afraid. She did tell him on occasion that the expanse was affecting her but do you honestly believe Trip thought that she'd slept with him because she was stressed and needed relief. That's what meditation and neuro-pressure were for and talk about making T'Pol more human. That's ♦the ultimate in making her less Vulcan. Using sex and Trip to seek some relief because they might die.

[WarpGirl]

Who said I thought Trip thought she was afraid of dying? My point is not fear, stress, the burden of responsibility she carried. Trip would understand these things and could reason (since even WE didn't know what was going on) that these things led to that night. He has seen her burdened before. You seem to read a lot in my posts that I have never said. Maybe that's why you think I don't understand being in love. IDK but it's weird.

[pdsldl]

You said his thought were: "This whole situation is insane and we still may die. No wonder she's been a little off lately. OK she's stressed and was desperate for relief, I get that. "

ok so you think she used Trip for stress relief or that he thought she might have. And how exactly is he not supposed to see that a bad thing when he has true feelings for her? And then sympathize somehow and not be as hurt?

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

She is, and he does suspect it, but you should never expect men in real life or in fiction to be able to read minds.

Especially female minds. Human or otherwise.

Quoted for truth!

Ask any man you know what his reaction to being told that he was an 'exploration in human sexuality' would be. Not good in any sense of the word. A major hit to his self-esteem even if he hid it, which I would think any man would do his best to do to save some semblance of his pride.

Again, quoted for truth!

TUCKER: No need to thank me. <Though I don't mind if you feel you absolutely must>
T'POL: For facilitating my exploration of human sexuality. <There, that sounds rational enough>
TUCKER: <Ouch! What the hell kind of shit is this?> I'm not sure I follow.
T'POL: It's one of the many aspects of your species which I've been meaning to explore since I left the High Command. <Yes, very rational. An anthropological-slash-biological study...nothing at all about keeping that bitch Cole from stepping in and stealing my man.>
TUCKER: <What the hell bullshit is this? Is she for real?> Sounds like you're saying last night was some kind of experiment.
T'POL: <Oops. I may have pushed that a little too far.> I wouldn't use that term.
TUCKER: But that's the general idea. <She's trying to pretend this was all just some anthropological-slash-biological study, isn't she? I should have known something like this would happen. Well, lover??? Some backpedaling of some kind would be very good of you to do right about now.>
T'POL: <He's angry? Tactical alert! > Are you getting emotional?
TUCKER: No, I'm not getting emotional. <And if I were I sure as hell wouldn't admit it to you NOW.> I just don't like being compared to a lab rat. <See, it's nothing that really crushes my poor heart. It's just generally offensive and degrading. You could still backtrack now, you know.>
T'POL: I'm sorry if I offended you. <Maybe I took that a little too far but I don't see any safe way out of it.>
TUCKER: Forget it. <I'm such an idiot.> I'd appreciate it if we could keep this between us. <Please GOD don't let the rest of the ship know what just happened.> In fact, we probably should forget it ever happened. <How does THAT feel, huh? Taste of your own medicine.>
T'POL: Agreed. <I definitely took that too far.>
TUCKER: <You know, I don't buy it. She was wild last night. 'Exploration' my ass.> Doesn't mean we can't keep doing the neuro-pressure though. <If she's wearing those pajamas, I'm still in.>
T'POL: <I'll wear the red PJs tonight. I think he likes those best.>

Spot on!

That said, I never liked the morning after scene. It was thrown in there so TPTB could have their cake and eat it too - have TnT get together only to pull them apart again. The will they/won't they crap...

As a man, I'd be hard pressed to put up with all the antics T'Pol pulled, even considering the fact that she's an alien, no matter how nice her bum is. Trip is a saint.

[WarpGirl]

OK I will try to explain so take everything I say literally... The situation they are in is insane even though there are a lot of things Trip doesn't know, there are a lot of things he does know.

1. She left her home, her career, (entire way of life professionally) her family, and any security of a future she might have had on Vulcan (after dumping the fiancee) to join them in stopping an enemy meant to wipe out every human from existance. Right there that is a huge burden to put up with.

2. She's got a Captain that isn't exactly stable all of the time, so she's constantly under pressure to do things against her own code of ethics. Another huge burden.

3. The anomalies of the Expanse are effecting her (I don't think that was a lie) so her health is affected, more so because of Rajin.

4. She cares about him much more than her people would say is right. Let's face it he's not a complete idiot, he knows enough about Vulcans that she doesn't have to do the Neuropressure. All she had to do was tell Archer to order him to use Phlox's leeches. As a Starfleet officer he knows that too.

5. She's still dealing with the daily struggle of putting up with 84 humans 1 Denubulan and a dog. She has a hard time in the very best circumstances, you don't think it got worse?

6. There is a very good possibility they were going to die. Vulcans might not fear death, BUT they have very strong survival instincts. Why do you think they're so paranoid when the control is gone, its kill or be killed. Trip knows she's not afraid of death, but he also knows she does not want to die. Yet she volunteered for a potential suicide mission.

7. He knows she's off her rocker, he just didn't know WHY!

Now as to why he would think that her sleeping with him for all of those reasons is not necessarily a bad thing... Because he knows she does care about him. He may not know she loves him, but heck he doesn't know he loves her. He knows she cares, he knows she chose him, not anyone else him. If she was just using sex for stress relief she could have chosen anyone. Malcom and Archer are both attracted to her he knows it, its a good bet she knows it. I think he knew her well enough to know if she truly wanted it to mean absolutely nothing he would be the last person to pick, because he knows, she cares about him. He has imperical proof by her jealousy of Amanda Cole. He might not know its love but she did give him something. But most importantly he knows her, he knows it was her first time, he knows that this is new, and let's face it humans freak her out. And he's as human as it gets.

Trip is not a Saint!

[Asso]

Trip is not a Saint!

Maybe, a little foolish? (with all my love! Ahem... respect. )

[WarpGirl]

No Trip isn't foolish. He's a man, a flawed man because humans (and all other sapient beings) are flawed. And I don't have as much sympathy for him as everyone else because he sent plenty of mixed messages himself, and most importantly never told her he was willing to commit. In other words he's the best type of guy that can possibly exist. And even that's not perfect.

[Asso]

Mh... and yet, a little foolish he is. But you can always say that men are always so.

[WarpGirl]

So are women.

[Asso]

No. Women are not foolish. A little catty, sometimes.
Splendid, isn't it?

[Rigil Kent]

there are a lot of things he does know.

Okay, I've been lurking a bit, reading these threads and catching up, and I just had to comment.

Please don't take this the wrong way, WarpGirl, did we watch the same show? Ninety-five percent of the issues TnT had revolved entirely around miscommunication - he said one thing, she perceived it a different way, and vice versa. Look at how offended she got when he made the old painting comment which was obviously intended to be a compliment on her looks. They were never on the same wavelength yet you seem to believe that Trip had some sort of magical Vulcan translator on hand despite the clear evidence to the contrary. I don't get it.

As a guy, I'm going to have to go with the majority here. Trip was pleased, almost smug when he joined T'Pol at the table and she unloaded that direct hit to his ego - she said 'exploration', he heard 'experiment.' More importantly, he probably heard things in the comment that weren't intended. She said "I wouldn't use that term" and he heard the unspoken "but it is a good analogy." For that matter, she didn't exactly correct his misconception because she promptly jumped to the "are you getting emotional" comment - which Trip is going to know is perceived as a negative thing in Vulcan culture. Everything he heard indicated that she was regretting the whole thing, which any guy is going to take as a blow.

The way I see it, you're assigning Trip knowledge that he has no way of knowing. He was the first to (literally) offer her the hand of friendship and she turned her back on him. He is, in canon, never told about Tolaris' attack or the Pa'nar or the truth about her past (the Fullara), all three of which seem pretty important elements about her life, despite basically telling her everything and anything she wanted to know about him. Throughout season 3, up to this point, yes, they are shown to be getting closer and more comfortable with each other but, as "Harbinger" points out, they aren't talking about emotional subjects with each other (since he told Cole about Lizzie.) Until she makes the first move, Trip has no idea that she's actually attracted to him - witness his more than surprised expression right before she pounces and the expression when she drops the robe.

If she was just using sex for stress relief she could have chosen anyone.

Uh ... no, she couldn't. Archer is her commanding officer, Reed is a junior officer. Although she holds no technical rank at this point, they made a point of establishing in the previous seasons that her rank is equivalent to Trip's (even if the position is superior.) Sex with any of them complicates the situation almost as much as it complicated what she had with Trip.

He has imperical proof by her jealousy of Amanda Cole.

He has empirical proof that T'Pol reacted because of this fact and, based entirely on her reaction during the Morning After, it's also logical to presume that he (accurately, it appears) also suspects she's regretting it. That's why he started to backtrack and cover his butt - the VNP comment after the fact? Well, that was, as some have stated, the producers wanting their cake and eating it too. In real life, most guys would have thrown up their hands and tracked down the hot MACO to get the wildly inconsistent Vulcan out of their system.

And to the remark that he never told her what he wanted, well why would he? She'd already stomped on his ego already and then later, dragged him to Vulcan so he could watch her get married. The one time he did start to talk about "them," she held up the Kir'shara and told him she didn't have time for "them."

He might not know its love but she did give him something.

Yeah, she gave him hot sex and the the morning after brush-off which is a serious ego blow. Flip the genders and tell me you wouldn't be offended. "Hey, thanks for last night, T'Pol. I've been wanting to sex up a Vulcan for a while now and you really came through." That's basically what she told him (run through a Guy translation matrix.)

But most importantly he knows her, he knows it was her first time

Fanon. There is absolutely no canonical evidence indicating that this was A) her first time, or B) he had any knowledge that it was her first time. He knows (from "Fusion" and Kov) that Vulcan males are driven to mate every 7 years, so again, it's logical on his part to presume that she isn't a virgin, particularly since he's still thinking in human terms (which was an ongoing problem of his.) In fact, one could actually make a decent argument that it wasn't - in season 1, she had some rather interesting advice to Phlox about the doctor getting involved with a human (Cutler) that could be construed as her speaking from experience. Do I believe that to be the case? No. But that doesn't negate the fact that you're assigning Trip data he doesn't actually have.

Trip is not a Saint!

No, he hasn't performed three miracles that I'm aware of, but in terms of relationship, yeah, he kind of is. T'Pol was terribly, terribly high maintenance and most men would have run away screaming, no matter "how nice her bum is."

[pdsldl]

I'm withdrawing from this discussion because we're at the point I can end up getting myself in trouble. I've had very intense experience with these emotions and I know that some people don't know what I'm talking about because my own sister looks at me if I'm speaking in tongues when the subject of being in love and getting to that point gets in depth. It took me years to get her to see that there are different types of love and even being in love and that she and I have experienced love very differently so cannot discuss it because we are coming from two very different places that may never match up.

And I don't think Trip was insane or a saint. He was a guy in love trying to do the best he could with little or no information from T'Pol. He may have been able to read her but it's a lot to ask of him to risk his heart on intuition when there was no forward progress in actions from her.

[Asso]

I share your feelings and perceptions.