Is T-Pol a Couger

[Silverbullet]

T-Pol is 66, almost twice as old as Trip and about 20 years older than Archer.

would she go for a Young, Vigorous, Trip or an Older, fading Archer?

[Aquarius]

I don't even think I understand the question.

Comparatively, for T'Pol to be a cougar, she'd have to be something like a hundred years older in order to be the equivalent of a cougar in biological age for the comparison to hold up.

At her current age, she's pretty well biologically matched to Trip...who will eventually look like he's robbing the cradle as Midlife Crisis Guy and Dirty Old Man, respectively, because he will biologically age faster than her because of the difference in their life spans.

And I'm not sure about the Archer part of the question. Are you asking if T'Pol would prefer a human male who is older because of her chronological age? I think it's doubtful she would, again because he'd age faster comparatively.

[honeybee]

T'Pol is clearly around Trip's age biologically, and I think you're right Aquarius. The age difference thing would not matter nearly as much as the fact that even with the age difference - T'Pol will still age slower and live longer than a human mate. That would be a concern but not that fact that she is older.

[crystalswolf]

Okay, I can kind of understand this question. I ask it all the time when adults (especially adult women) rave about the Twilight couple Edward and Bella. Here's the creepy part of it all, biologically they are matched but when you consider the experiences the older person has compared to the younger... ewww. (think of a 90? year old man that has an interest in a 16 yo *shiver* Now think if that man could somehow look younger).

As for TnT, I think the Xindi attack aged Trip emotionally and T'Pol being curious about her emotions combined with that ever-present Vulcan upbringing puts them somewhere on the same level.

[justTripn]

I think that alot of the times we take a shortcut and think: T'Pol is not going to age. But in fact, she will age at about half (human) speed. So if she marries Trip when he is 36 and she is 66 (I may be off by a few years with Trip's age, but it's something like that), then when he is 56, she will be 86 and look like 43, which is an OK match. When he is 86, she will be 116 and look almost 60. So it is not as bad a match as we often suppose.

As for mental maturity, at least our American culture is such that once you are an adult age doesn't matter that much at least for friendships. I think it still matters romantically because of looks. So Trip and Archer are similiar enouph in terms of emotional maturity from T'Pol's point of view. In fact, Archer is prone to some childlike "goofiness" almost as much as Trip.

I just read crystalwolf's post and I think she is right that

As for TnT, I think the Xindi attack aged Trip emotionally and T'Pol being curious about her emotions combined with that ever-present Vulcan upbringing puts them somewhere on the same level.

[pdsldl]

I agree. There is a huge difference in the naive Trip at the beginning and the seasoned, more worldly, experienced Trip that came out of season 3 and 4. Experience wise T'Pol was never going to find a human male who was a biological match and an intellectual match. That would have required humans to have been out in space for several years before they were. I've never considered age unless one of them is under 21. I look more to how they match up intellectually and emotionally. To me being a cougar is more about taking a younger man for her sexual gratification not as a companion or life-long partner.

[justTripn]

Also, I think the icky part of the 93 year old and the 16 year old is that the 16-year old is inexperienced and easily impressed by the first person who comes along and so is vulnerable and it is the responsibility of the older person not to take advantage of this vulnerability. But a 93 year old and a 28 year old? I would just shake my head and say I don't get it, but I wouldn't consider it really morally objectionable. A 28 year old is an adult and you have to respect that person's choice.

So carried over to the Trip and T'Pol case, there is no problem, because neither party is an adolescent.

[justTripn]

I agree. There is a huge difference in the naive Trip at the beginning and the seasoned, more worldly, experienced Trip that came out of season 3 and 4. Experience wise T'Pol was never going to find a human male who was a biological match and an intellectual match. That would have required humans to have been out in space for several years before they were. I've never considered age unless one of them is under 21. I look more to how they match up intellectually and emotionally. To me being a cougar is more about taking a younger man for her sexual gratification not as a companion or life-long partner.

I agree with this too.

[crystalswolf]

Here's a thought. Many times someone from one culture will view other cultures with their own standard. An example would be that I know of someone from India where his family and his wife's family arranged their marriage. He was 25? and she was 16. This was perfectly acceptable for their culture but would do more than raise a few eyebrows here (and let's not forget that this situation may have been acceptable in our own past here in the US). It didn't help that I couldn't help but continuously mention how he had to go get his child-bride.

Now what is the Vulcan stance on the TnT relationship? Is Trip underage by their standards because of their long lives? Just because humans are short-lived compared to them, does that mean they view humans with the same human age standards? Or do they see our standard of cut-off between child-adult like we view other cultures where it's anywhere from 13 to 16 and we think it's distasteful? Vulcans may dismiss it as "they are living by their rules" but when a Vulcan does such a thing would they react differently like we would do?

[Pegmumm]

Yeah but... isn't T'Pol at puberty sexually? She hasn't even had her first Pon Farr yet nor is she at an age for reproduction. If anything she's way younger physically than Trip even though she has experienced more in years. I doubt that humans would put human teenagers at the helms of ships as they did with T'Pol.

Nah, she's no cougar... but her mom sure is.

peg

[crystalswolf]

Perhaps the standard is not based on the ability to reproduce (a standard that we don't even use anymore). Perhaps it is the average age where most Vulcans achieve an acceptable level of emotional control. Each culture has its standard and reasons for it and may or may not be based on the same reasons from one culture to another.

[Aquarius]

I think that alot of the times we take a shortcut and think: T'Pol is not going to age. But in fact, she will age at about half (human) speed. So if she marries Trip when he is 36 and she is 66 (I may be off by a few years with Trip's age, but it's something like that), then when he is 56, she will be 86 and look like 43, which is an OK match. When he is 86, she will be 116 and look almost 60. So it is not as bad a match as we often supposse.

Not that I think she doesn't age, but I also always imagined she'd age more slowly than this, since Vulcans can live to be around 250. I think my estimation is that her appearance would be about a human decade less than that.

[Aquarius]

Yeah but... isn't T'Pol at puberty sexually? She hasn't even had her first Pon Farr yet nor is she at an age for reproduction. If anything she's way younger physically than Trip even though she has experienced more in years. I doubt that humans would put human teenagers at the helms of ships as they did with T'Pol.

Nah, she's no cougar... but her mom sure is.

peg

Do we know, canonically, that T'Pol can't reproduce at her age?

[pdsldl]

I'm confused about what being sexually mature has to do with emotional readiness for a relationship. Our youth are sexually able to reproduce at a much younger age than their emotional maturity level. To me that is not what the basis for maturity for relationships should be, if so then marriage at 12 would seem reasonable. And as far as cultures that condone marriage at a young age their youth are aware of their own culturally mores and hopefully are prepared by their families for the responsibilities involved.

[honeybee]

Ponn Farr is a tricky issue as well - Spock appeared to be older than T'Pol in Amok Time, and yet this was his first Ponn Farr. Yet, in The Search for Spock, teen Spock appears to go through Pon Farr. And lots of people think that women don't go through Pon Farr unless their mates do, although I've always thought that a female would have to go through some kind of mating cycle.

But in any case, just because she hasn't married or gone through Ponn Farr, that doesn't make T'Pol less of an adult. Her body is certainly sexually mature, and she's definitely treated as a responsible adult, albeit a younger adult, by other Vulcans. And Harbinger, we do see that she's capable of sexual congress and adult sexual impulses - she even is shown to have sexual desires in Fusion, before Tolaris is revealed to be the creep he is. I think there's a difference between pon farr and sexual maturity in Vulcans - so its not precisely analogous to a human female getting her period, which can happen very young by any standards.

But it seems that most of the time, Pon Farr comes alone when Vulcans are in the equivalent of late 20s or early 30s - the logical age to marry and start a family. The young Vulcan male with a crush on Torres on Voyager appeared a little younger than that.

In the larger sense, Vulcans probably emotionally mature slower than humans. Not experiencing emotions and the accompanying impulses means they don't make as many mistakes. They don't have "starter romances" and first loves and crushes the way humans do. By the time Trip falls in love with T'Pol, he's not only grown as a person as other have mentioned, he's had more relationships. In that way, he's more mature than she is.