"Mirage" discussion thread

[Escriba]

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this or only Administrators have that privilege (eh, Honeybee? ) but since I put this story on the right track again (yay!) and I'm writing the next chapter, I've thought of doing a little survey to know what people is expecting. This is a thread where I can see if the universe I'm writing is being understood.

For example, is there any point of the story I didn't make clear or you have doubts about? (don't be shy to ask, if it's something I'll explain in following chapters I'll say so and keep the secret )

More especifically: is something I didn't explain well enough or it's still confusing after apparently explaining it?

Would you want something to be explained because you think it's essential to the story? (this might be helpful since I know the entire story and I could overlook some important point that you, the readers, need to know.)

Is some character very OCC? Or the changes made in one character doesn't have explanation (or logic) enough? After I've read the reviews I've seen Linda asked about V'Lar and how she didn't see much of the RU V'Lar in her. Don't worry, Linda, there is an explanation.

My take in the development of the new universe is to do it little by little, am I doing a good job for now? Or it's still blurred and confusing?

My rule of putting three (at least) Chekhov guns in each chapter... Is it all right? Is it too much? It doesn't matter since you aren't even seeing them?

And last, but not least, about the relationship between Trip and T'Pol... Too slow? Too fast? Realistic? Or do you have to do a double axel of faith to swallow it?

Any answer and help is welcome guys

[crystalswolf]

As far as reading it the first time around, I didn't have any questions and LOVED the differences in your universe. But now I know there's another chapter in the works , I'm definitely going to reread to refresh my memory but will remember to make a note of any questions.

[Alelou]

Chekhov guns, Schmekhov guns. I just want you to KEEP THE CHAPTERS COMING.

[honeybee]

Oh, absolutely, keep the chapters coming. And discussion threads about long stories are welcome (as far as I know).

Loved your last chapter - and I thought about your AU when I was writing my MU - thinking about the essential traits that make up the characters - and how even under radically different circumstances, some things about the different characters will remain the same.

[michelle]

Im in love with your AU.

The TnT pacing is PERFECT, any faster in future would be a let down. I can't wait to see how it goes.

The Vulcan/human dislike of each other is a touch on the weak side, for me however. Then again, this isn't the MU so i'm imagining that even though there was a falling out between vulcan and earth at some time, it wasn't because humans were blood thirsty, power hungry maniacs, so i'm guessing that both sides do have that peace loving and getting along element that is seen in the original universe, so perhaps it does make sense. But I think the war should have cultivated just a little more bitterness between the two sides, perhaps there is but it's not quite coming across just yet.

But, yeah, LOVE IT!

[Escriba]

Chekhov guns, Schmekhov guns. I just want you to KEEP THE CHAPTERS COMING.

*salute* Yes, ma'am. Immediately, ma,am.

Loved your last chapter - and I thought about your AU when I was writing my MU - thinking about the essential traits that make up the characters - and how even under radically different circumstances, some things about the different characters will remain the same.

Oh, thanks. I must admit that in a cowardly movement I haven't begun your MU story, just because you write so well that I don't want to be intoxicated and then write something similar.

The Vulcan/human dislike of each other is a touch on the weak side, for me however. Then again, this isn't the MU so i'm imagining that even though there was a falling out between vulcan and earth at some time, it wasn't because humans were blood thirsty, power hungry maniacs, so i'm guessing that both sides do have that peace loving and getting along element that is seen in the original universe, so perhaps it does make sense. But I think the war should have cultivated just a little more bitterness between the two sides, perhaps there is but it's not quite coming across just yet.

Interesting. I didn't want to exaggerate the hate and distrut between Humans and Vulcans, so maybe I came as too soft. There is going to be a bit more about the hate and the political enviroment in chapters 13 and 14.
On the other hand, the view of the war we have in the story comes from individual characters that are in the front, almost all of them isolated from the population and the power center, and each one with his/her own take. And in that sense:

- Archer is the only one with a personal grudge against Vulcans (that perhaps it's been more told than showed, but it will have influence in the future.)
- Travis is very... neutral about it. And possibly he could have more against Andorians than Vulcans. But that, too, is a story for the future.
- Trip has absolutely no personal resentment against Vulcans (I tried to leave it very clear), and has his RU good nature intact in the AU. So much that he still feels guilty for his rage against a Vulcan soldier.
- T'Pol is a little sickened by the war. Even if, as Archer, she has a personal grudge against Humans, she is Vulcan and a professional. Besides, we've seen that there are things about the High Command she doesn't like.
- Soval is trying to save his species, he has no time for hate, frankly.
- Hoshi... Oh, yes, the Japanese Hoshi... We haven't seen her in front of a Vulcan yet. Who knows what could happen then.
- Erika saw her marriage ruined because the irrational hate against Vulcans. She could have blamed Vulcans for it, but Erika is the type of person that has a deep awareness of reality.
- Malcolm... Malcolm is a soldier. We'll see more of him in chapter 13, but don't expect deep feelings of any kind towards the enemy. The enemy is the enemy, and that's all.

The plot is very character-driven and there are (and there will be) situations when their feelings and their beliefs would reveal a little of the general enviroment, but still the story will suffer of a too personal approach of the war, more than a generic one (even with the mentions to Paxton, the genocide perpetrated by the Vulcans or the distrust of the Humans as a spur for the war here and there.)

[honeybee]

I don't think you came off soft, Escriba. I think it is very realistic that some humans would personally hate Vulcans and let their bigotry run amok as Archer has - certainly you found that with certain Americans after 9/11 when looking at Muslims. Beyond that, humans would likely have a spectrum of reactions - including Reed's "I'm just a soldier" and Trip's distrust which is mitigated by his natural openness.

There are things about Vulcan culture that humans wouldn't understand or would rightfully disapprove of (fights to the death over mates? barbaric) - but the Vulcans would probably have a similar reaction to the humans.

In your story, TnT are the good people that they are in the RU - it's just the circumstances of their universe that have made them ignorant of each other's culture and suspicious of one another. But they've found themselves in a situation where they must trust each other.

[Silverbullet]

Based on History here on Earth, Humans are more likely to forgive and forget.

After WWII there was much revealed about the atrocities made by the Japanese and to an extent by the Germans. But in a half cetury it has all been erased. today there are Japanase and German Products, and culture in the U.S. and no one blinks. Right after the war there waas a great deal of Hatred towards both countires.

I believe that the Humans could get over Vulcan hatred and distrust if given half a chance. Not sure about the Vulcans. Do they carry a grudge?

[crystalswolf]

I have to disagree. Even now you hear the rumblings of "The War of Norther Aggression" and that was a war older than WWII and WWI. I think when a war ends, over time forgiveness depends on the conquered because the conquerors are happy enough to have won.

As for an on-going war, tensions between the two sides will surface differently in different people. Of course those touched closest by the continuing war will have a stronger reaction while others less emotionally involved will fight out of a sense of duty and loyalty to their side. I think the story depicts this perfectly (from what I remember).

[panyasan]

It's true that Trip and T'Pol don't seem to act very hatefull towards each other, but I totally buy it. In a war you have the fanatics, the heroes and the soldiers who fight the war, because they are loyal to their country/planet that is part of the conflict. The leaders say it's a good cause - so they fight. I think Trip and T'Pol fit the last group. Escriba once told in a thread the background of this war - a chain of events that showed who prejudice and lower instincts can make the way for a war'.

I don't know if Humans are more forgiving then Vulcans. Maybe they think it's logic to forgive, because you can't jugde one person of a certain specie by the acts of other of that specie.
Humans are capable of forgiveness, but recentments die hard. Let's say some family members who suffered under the Japanese occupation, were not so thrilled when we moved to Japan and my gentle and kind grandfather, who died 30 years after the war, never wanted to travel to Germany after the German occupation.

[Silverbullet]

PPanyasan. What you say is true to a point. My Unce was killed in Italy in 1944. We knew it was by a German Hand Grenade. but I never held a gridge. I loved Germany and married a German woman. My family welcomed her openly. On the other hand we had a relative who was merchant seaman. His ship was a day out of Yokohama. It was swept up and he spent the entire war in a POW camp in Japan. He hated the Japanese to the day he died. He would never talk about his experinces but one time and that was to explain why he could not eat a meal with others in a room. It seemd that during meal time the Japanese would arbitraily seclect one Prisononer to torture while the others ate and listened the the screams.

Generally, though, the ony place I have ever seen real resentment against the Japanes was China and their hatred is deep.

[Pegmumm]

My parents grew up in Nazi occupied Holland. The stories I heard growing up were pretty horrendous but I don't remember my parents saying anything about Germans as negative as what I heard coming from Americans.

Ex-husband was a curator of a local museum... the propaganda in the US surpassed anything seen anywhere in the world.

People in the US are carefully taught to hate... I doubt we are aware of it.
Sorry, I read a great book by a French author on the power of Propaganda.
Mind blowing stuff.
I haven't owned a TV since I read it over 10 years ago.

Hatred is borne of ignorance. Those who seek to control count on this fact.
Terra Prime is just one in a sea of competitors for our allegiances.

My Dutch gramma used to say... Don't give your allegiances to your conquerors... there's always another one just around the corner.
peg

[Alelou]

I seriously doubt US government propaganda was any worse than German propaganda against the Jews, or the way the Japanese were taught from childhood to worship the Emperor and despise anyone who would allow himself to be taken prisoner or subjugated. Generally speaking, the more brutal and capricious the control and power being exercised over soldiers and the population, the more brutal and capricious THEY will then behave to everyone who falls under THEIR power.

Frankly, the more I learn about the Japanese in WWII the less I sympathize with those who didn't think we should have used the atomic bomb. It's horrible and brutal math, but it saved not only a lot of American lives, but a lot of Japanese lives too (AND Chinese). That government was going to make its people fight to the end. Hell, they didn't even give up after the FIRST bomb.

[Pegmumm]

Just to add to the cringe factor here... my grandmother was forced into prostitution by the Germans. My uncle was nearly decapitated by a drunk German soldier at home. My mother saw the worst in men, day after day. They were in one of areas of Holland that was most oppressed. I was astounded to find out the extent of depredations when I took a history of Europe after WW2 by both Axis and Allied soldiers.

I have seen and read many of the accounts of the prisoner of war camps, both Japanese and German as well as teaching history of Nazi Germany on a high school level.

I suggest you read up on Manzanar.

I'll never forget a parent of a 12 year old friend who sent me home to my mother and threatened to kill his daughter if she ever played with that "dirty little Dutch kid" again.

peg

[honeybee]

Let us not forget that Leni Riefenstahl basically invented the language of modern propaganda with her film Triumph of the WIll - a film that is still invoked, borrowed from and outright recycled but politicians of all stripes.

Alelou - Did you ever read "The Rape of Nanking?" - it's a horrific nonfiction account of Japanese atrocities in China. Very gripping, but terribly sad. My Singaporean Chinese roommate from years ago gave it to me - when I said something that she thought was "too soft" about the Japanese. Her family suffered mightily in WWII.

Anyway, getting back to Escriba's story - propaganda and prejudice tends to flourish in times of war - and at different levels. It will be interesting to see how Escriba handles that in the context of TnT falling in love.