A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

[Transwarp]

So, if a couple that cannot have children (*cough* T'Pol/Trip *cough*) marry, is it some sort of weird, exotic recreational Vulcan hippie experience?

That would certainly explain the black lights and hanging beads in T'Pol's quarters. Like, groovy, man...

[Silverbullet]

Cw, quad fine. but the Andorians need four to have childrent. I take that to mean four ANDORIANS. Doubt if a human would fit in that for Children. If it is for recreational Sex then the Homosexuality and Lesbianism could be understoond as could female swapping. Still a Human? Adndorians would prefer a far colder environment than humans so Albert would freeze his buns off and probably would be incapable of joining in. Well, maybe not if the Andorians got him going so he heated a bit.

But both Shran and Albert must be switchhitters for the quad.

As wody allen said, a switch hitter increased his chances of a date on Saturday night by 50 percent.

[honeybee]

Oh - I get on a plane and things get interesting in my little thread!

As I imagined Andorians - knowing they are in quad marriages - I pictured them, purely from my own imagination, as omnisexual or pansexual, whatever term you want. They go any which way in as many permutations as they feel like. I also made it clear that once a quad is formed, they are expected to be faithful among the four, but not necessarily before then. This why Shran and wife #1 are able to hit on TnT. And yes, given the multiple references to very large rooms and large beds on the Andorian homeworld - I'm thinking that at least in the MU - they do the group thing. I think I made it clear in the story that Shran sent his wife to seduce Trip, so that Trip would politely offer his wife to Shran - and then well. . .they would take it from there. Andorians, as I imagine them, don't have a double standard about male and female bisexuality, at least in the MU.

I mean, really, MU Kira on DS9 seemed willing to have sex with herself - so not a stretch!

And as for whether or not these kinds of relationships happen on Earth - the answer is yes. I'm currently at a nonfiction conference presenting an article I wrote on polyfidelity - meaning people who live in faithful groups, usually of three or four.

I interviewed many people who live in these arrangements. A triad is three people who live together, mff or mfm, and triad connotes that the two of the same gender are also in love/sexually involved with one another. The term vee connotes a triple where the two of the same gender are friends but only are in love and have sex with the person in the "middle". Quads can pretty much be anything - but the mostly they are two "primary" hetero couples - and if there is any "gay stuff" it goes on between the two women because as Alelou said, the fact that it turns men on makes it acceptable and many women embrace it. Although, I did meet a quad where the men were also bisexual and involved with each other.

I spend months researching it, and it makes me a little dizzy keeping it all straight. Never mind issues like bathroom time and who pays for dinner.

Anyway, I was researching the article when I conceived the MU Andorians as the ultimate pansexual, omnisexual race. I didn't think too much about whether or not they would need three or four or two to procreate - but if TnT can have a kid - I figure Trip's brother can contribute some DNA somewhere in there in the same way.

And as for Lizzie, I'm sure she wants her brother(s) to be happy, but like any good royal - even a new one - she will put the needs of the Empire first. She thinks alien hybrid children will bring the Empire together - so she'll make it happen. She's not a wilting flower.

And if I do say so myself, the Andorians worked great in the narrative of my story - because I used them to contrast how faithful TnT were to each other (flirting aside) and how possessive Vulcans could be of their mates. It's clear that Vulcans in the MU as I wrote them are monogamous and like it that way.

[crystalswolf]

Honeybee's pretty much said it all, but I'll leave my post as is to add in some points.

Vulcans require 2 to reproduce. How does a human fit in to that? Or the other way around, humans need 2 as well, how does a Vulcan fit in to that? Marriage of 4 may have been based on reproduction, but we do not know if it has changed over time for them to be more about affection than reproduction... much like marriage on Earth. Try telling a couple on Earth that their marriage is only for reproduction otherwise its just recreational, especially a couple that cannot have children.

I think it's been agreed, for the most part, that T'Pol and Trip could not reproduce without some scientific intervention thanks to being different species. And yet, they are often written as in love and married and not just a "recreational" thing. Andorians require 2 more individuals, but why should they be any different? Does it have to be a cheap fling because their biology has determined their culture of 4 instead of 2? Wow, I'm getting Alien Nation flashbacks like crazy!

Albert, in TGTMD was written as at least homosexual (but he could have been bisexual or is bisexual in the MU like other characters). Honeybee has the space of an entire universe to work with and we'll just have to see where Honeybee goes with it.

[Asso]

Oh damn! Are such things needed to write a story?
Well. I guess I will cease to write.
I am not equipped.

[Alelou]

Oh damn! Are such things needed to write a story?
Well. I guess I will cease to write.
I am not equipped.

Cease if you wish, but this is obviously a discussion about A Mirror Cracked and funky sexual combinations, not about all TnT fanfic in general.

Crystalswolf makes a good point. Marriage exists for more than procreation (for most of us), or it wouldn't really make sense for Trip and T'Pol to indulge in it at all.

However, Shran offering his girlfriend to another guy in the hope the favor will be returned does suggest a primarily hetero orientation, doesn't it? (Even if it turns into a vee or double-u or whatever once a quad forms.)

There's a fairly recent, well-written erotic multi-chapter story at the Warp 5 Complex that develops a real triad with Archer, Trip, and T'Pol. I have to admit that while I'm game for a lot of things I just couldn't suspend my disbelief for the full extent of that one. I just couldn't see Trip or Jon being that sexually flexible over an extended period of time, at least not once the alien drugs wear off.

We all hit our personal walls in different places, and those places might also change for us as time passes. (I would have shrieked and run for cover if I accidentally stumbled across that story twenty years ago.)

[Asso]

If I want to cease to write, I will do it without any need of wise advices.
If I want to go on writing, I will do it without any need of wise advices.
I think there will be gentle people willing to help me.
Gentle people exist.

Anyway, I know - I am equipped enough - that all this is "out topic".
So - I think this can be clear - I cease.

[honeybee]

I hear you on the slash thing, Alelou. It's most certainly an acquired taste. I never cease to be amazed at how many women are into it. It's my understanding that most of the original TOS slash writers were women back in the day. In my MU story, I was pretty chaste. I might imply that weird stuff is going on between the Andorians - but as NC-17 as the TnT stuff was - I usually managed to fade to black during the really alien stuff - as well as the violent stuff. Maybe that's worse, not better - as it leaves things to the imagination.

Certainly, in my story, Shran is written as being in love with Talas. So, you can take that to the bank. He just also loves his other wife. How they are all going to feel about their human husband is something I'll have to work out for the sequel.

Panyasan also made an interesting comment about Lizzie/Archer. She said it was the terrific woman who has the rotten boyfriend/husband and nobody can figure out why she is with that guy. I totally meant it to come off that way - although in Lizzie's mind she has a guy who owes her his life and was in love with her before she was Empress - two things that to her count for a lot. But I doubt there's going to be smooth sailing there in the sequel either.

[Alelou]

I have trouble with slash that takes one character I think is straight and turns him gay, or bi, which I guess is the definition of slash, right? Now if he is perhaps someone who is trying so hard not to be gay that I begin to wonder if he really is gay, that's different. (Yes, I still think Hayes and Reed have chemistry!)

But that's kind of a moot point, because almost the only fanfic I ever read is fairly heavy on Trip and T'Pol or I don't bother. The truth is I almost never CARE about any other ship. You have to have done amazing work in your story to make me care. Not even Rigil Kent can usually make me care. I'll put up with other ships to get to the next glimpse of TnT if I think there's one coming. That's about it. It's kind of weird, after all this time. Sometimes I wonder if my brain is somehow fossilizing. I got over Mulder and Scully. Why can't I get over Trip and T'Pol?

I just finished The Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet and thought, well, it's a nice if not entirely plausible little moral tale about Japanese Internment, and I like the details about growing up in a Chinese-American household, but I don't really give a fig about the main relationship. I want to go find some more Trip and T'Pol.

They've hijacked me.

[honeybee]

I think we could all go on and on about what the appeal of TnT fanfic - but it really is a great pairing for this genre isn't it?

I think slash originally meant straight characters being written as gay - but I think it has evolved to mean any gay pairing. Torchwood fans produce a lot of fanfic and the conceit of that show is that in the future - everyone is bi! So Captain Jack has male and female lovers. The gay stuff is referred to as slash.

And you're right, Reed and Hayes had something going on - I don't know what.

But it was fun to play around with the Andorians - because there is the idea that they just have different mores.

[Transwarp]

Vulcans require 2 to reproduce. How does a human fit in to that? Or the other way around, humans need 2 as well, how does a Vulcan fit in to that? Marriage of 4 may have been based on reproduction, but we do not know if it has changed over time for them to be more about affection than reproduction... much like marriage on Earth. Try telling a couple on Earth that their marriage is only for reproduction otherwise its just recreational, especially a couple that cannot have children.

CW, you've made your point. Really. (I realized the logical trap I had fallen into with my 'procreation' vs. 'recreation' post almost immediately after I hit the send button. I was hoping no one would notice.)

Alas, not only did you notice, but you've been hammering the point home relentlessly. Yes, Trip and T'Pol got together for more than procreation. (Or recreation, for that matter.) In fact, depending on the story setting, they may have tied the knot before they knew procreation was even possible. But they've traveled a long and difficult road together, over which they've come to respect and appreciate each other and develop feelings that trump procreation (or recreation). In short, they've developed a relationship.

I see none of that with the Shran-Albert-Quad thing. So while procreation would conceivably be possible in this scenario, it doesn't seem to be the primary focus. You can't just say, 'see? TnT isn't about procreation so this the same.'

It's not the same. It can't be the same, since Shran (or any of his triad) and Albert have never met. Shran just comes off looking to me as a swinger out for one-night stands and kinky combos. Of course, he is MU Shran, so 'anything goes'. (pun intended)

Honeybee, I hope the presentation of your article goes/went well. I applaud the in-depth research you've done for this; it shows.

[crystalswolf]

Alas, not only did you notice, but you've been hammering the point home relentlessly.

Perhaps it would be best to check the order and content of posts before accusing someone of "hammering" a point. I wasn't hammering anything. My second post was not for you but to address SB's post directed towards me. I just restated a lot of stuff because it fit with the response I had for SB. If that's hammering...

Now, how do you know there will not be a relationship built between Albert, Shran, and Shran's wives? Even though it is a "royal" arrangement does that mean he will be forced into the marriage or that he will sleep with anyone his sister points him in the direction of? Lizzie had the idea that her brother just might like Shran and thought it would be a good idea to get them together, hoping for a union to come of it.

Personally, I would say that it is more like a blind date with some motivation to at least seriously try to get to know each other. If his personality meshes well with the other three, they they can enter a committed relationship like any other couple or quad... Trip/T'Pol.

[Alelou]

We have a full moon tonight, don't we?

Okay, this is how stupid I am: Is it also a full moon tonight/last night in Afghanistan? Moon cycles are the same across the planet, right?

[honeybee]

Full moon is everywhere! And passion about my story and its elements appreciated!

This is kind of how I see it (as you do CW) - in my mind (and i have only implied this) Albert is a tough, wild guy that's been living a rough life. Mostly queer but bendable enough so that he could marry into a quad. It is the MU, after all. And Lizzie makes it worth everyone's while for them to consider this arrangement, and in my story, Shran and Talas were pretty tough cookies. Talas was even attracted to Reed - they might like someone a little rough around the edges.

It's definitely a royal arrangement that will hopefully turn out well. I mean - Lizzie is not going to force Albert or the Andorians into anything. But she might offer lands, title, monies and all sorts of other goodies to make it worth their while. And if it turns out they get along - well, that's great. I think they will. But it will a fun ride that will make the next Thanksgiving very interesting. TnT can tie each other up all they want, and the quad will still see them as quaint.

I also played with the Andorians as the opposite of Vulcans. I have them as non-monogamous, but also emotional (Shran approves of Talas telling TnT about Lizzie being imprisoned), carnivorous (like Polar Bears) and everything is very cold temperature wise. So, the whole Andorians will screw anything was deliberate.

I'll let everyone know how the workshop/presentation goes. I'm in a group with mostly personal essays - so I think a lot of people won't "get" me but we will see. And to be fair, I don't get them.

[panyasan]

Panyasan also made an interesting comment about Lizzie/Archer. She said it was the terrific woman who has the rotten boyfriend/husband and nobody can figure out why she is with that guy. I totally meant it to come off that way - although in Lizzie's mind she has a guy who owes her his life and was in love with her before she was Empress - two things that to her count for a lot. But I doubt there's going to be smooth sailing there in the sequel either.

Yeah, I sort of understand Lizzie's reasoning - but somehow it's still doesn't make me like Archer.