A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby honeybee » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:57 am

don't think Lizzie is in the relationship with Archer because she is suffering from a trauma of being held hostage. From the beginning she is taken charge of her own life, is melding Archer into an aid and wasn't forced to sleep with him. She is able to keep secrets from him and make up her own mind. I agree that she would be better off with some one else.
As for Archer: he is a pig, as Honeybee so gentle put it, and I think also that when he groped T'Pol he did it also because he wanted to get back at Tucker (I get her the same as you) and pure for lust. But he seem to soften up at bit in his relationship with Lizzie: he seems have feelings, the first in a long time, and this from a man who never had any or frozen them as quickly as they raise. This doesn't mean he is still a force that can turn ugly for Lizzie. I hope I make some sense.


As the author, I can say this makes perfect sense. In the MU, good men are hard to find. As dysfunctional as it is, Lizzie's found a man who cares about her and can help her - and has a dark side that could theoretically be turned against anyone who might want to hurt her. This makes him very alluring to her, even though her head tells her this could all backfire very easily.

And as for Archer groping T'Pol, he's still pissed that Forrest took Hoshi away from him. So, he's going to take a woman away from an underling to prove he is now in charge. Plus, he's just learned that his assumption about T'Pol being a cold fish is wrong, so lust is a big part of it too. Also, his assumption is that women are looking for protection and advancement when they choose a partner. It's probably true for most women in the MU - but it's not true for T'Pol. He's surprised to say the least when he gets rejected.

I like what you say about Archer freezing out any feelings he might have. I think that's true of both RU Archer and MU Archer, it just manifests in a much darker way in the MU.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby honeybee » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:20 pm

What I read and heard about polyandry, it mostly is a complicated relationship that doesn't make the women in the relationship very happy. On Earth I think almost every poly-relationship is man with a couple of women. Man don't like to share their wife/wives, this is a general trait, seen in every culture. So I kind of liked that Honeybee is refering to this complexity in her fic.


I've actually been doing some research on polyandry for a potential nonfiction article - and incorporating it into my story. For the most part, what you say about it usually being males with more than one female is true and it's almost always really sketchy and weird and bad for the women. The groups that practice this seem to be on the political extremes. Right-wing religious people such as the FDLS tend to practice polygamy - the man is the head of the "family" - and it's all about having as many children as possible. This are called "Vee" relationship - the man has sex with the women but the women don't (openly) have sex with each other. On the left wing extreme, you will have new age-y and hippie like cults that practice polyandry - where everyone has sex with each other. Again, it generally happens that there is one man and more than one - usually only two, women. This is called a "triad" - and the implication is that the man has sex with each of the women and the women also have sex with each other - and they share a bed together. But most of these relationships do have a dominant male - the so-called liberal cults still seem to put women in their place. However, on the new age side, it is much rarer - but you will find women at the center of triads and vees. It does happen.

The strangest subset I found were "accidental" polyfidelic relationships. There were triads and vees that didn't form from religious or spiritual ideology or even sexual perversion masking as religious ideology. I found a man who has two wives - prior to that, he was married to one of his wives and they were close friends with another couple. The man in that couple died. Somehow, in the grief process, the widow got folded into the relationship between her two friends. I interviewed the original "wife" and she said that once she and her husband got together with their wife - they considered their marriage dissolved and the three of them equal partners. They got new rings, had a ceremony and sleep in the same bed. They've lived this way for 15 years. I also met a woman who was dating two men casually ten years ago - and they kept dating and kept dating. And finally - they all moved in together - but in that case - the two men don't have sex with each other - just with her. But they do share a bed and all have rings. She's not legally married to either man, because she was never able to choose.

Weird? Yup. But the people in cult-like situations that I spoke to sounded nuts to me. The second group? They aren't nuts. Eccentric? Oh yeah. I was surprised to find such relationships existed. But they do. I'm still working on the research for the article - it's going to take time - but I've already made the early conclusion that the poly relationships that are put together out of ideology are creepy - the accidental ones? Not as creepy - just strange. And not something you could go looking for - they just sort of happen.

But anyway, this is my round about way of agreeing with you that most polyandry type relationships are generally bad for women. But, the way I set up Andorians - is that there is one of each gender in the quad and they are pansexual - I'm still working out how this would all work authority - wise - but I have this idea that they are free to screw around, thus Shran and his wife Nata making a play for TnT, until the quad is complete. Then, they are expected to stay faithful to one another. I made that part up.


But I totally agree that because of the mating bond, Vulcans would be very monogamous (unless, as I said, in a life for death situation) - and any kind of polyandry would be difficult for them if they could only bond with one person. And even though Trip was flirting with the Andorian woman - he's very attached to T'Pol - not just because of the bond but because there is such a thing as a monogamy gene in humans they think - and Trip strikes me as someone who has it in any universe.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Aquarius » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:20 am

It sounds like it's going to be a very interesting article, honeybee! You sure have done your homework. I agree that the cultish situations are creepy--but then they would be without all the crazy sex stuff.

I like how you applied your research to the Andorians. That's probably why it read authentically, though none of us (probably) has the experience of being in a polyamorous relationship.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby honeybee » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:29 am

Well, there's a reason I usually write about Vulcans - I'm naturally monogamous as I believe they are. (Some research shows that there is a monogamy gene, and even though I've never been married, I certainly have that gene. I stick with one guy at at time for long periods with nearly zero desire to stray.) So, it's been fun to get inside the head of a character like Talas - who finds the idea of monogamy strange and alien and would have sex with someone male or female - out of affection or impulse or gratitude. She simply has different sexual mores, as does Shran. I'm less interested in the dirty sex part of that - but the psychology is very interesting. I hope I have made Talas come off as a good person, and not shady or sketchy in any way. She does, after all, have standards.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby panyasan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:40 am

One of the things I thought about when I read your story, Honeybee, was an article I read about a Belgium director. She had made a movie about her experience as an child in a hippie communion in Amsterdam. Father had freely sexual relationships with other women (because they were so free minded) and the mother couldn't take it anymore at one point. Also the pressure to freely share leaded to having no privacy, that every person needs.
I also had a neighbour, who was the second wife of a man in Egypt. Her husband still lived in Egypt with his first wife. She always acted like this was the most normal thing in the world, but I really got the sense she was very unhappy about the situation.
As for Talas: she is a very nice second character and she comes across as Andorian woman with high standards. Nicely done.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Alelou » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:36 am

One of my college roommates joined a commune after college. I didn't inquire about their sexual practices, but what I remember most from the next time I caught up with her was that they had come down with a weird skin disease, the kind of thing not seen in modern times, because of the very natural communal soap they all shared.

There's such a thing as too much sharing.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby honeybee » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:57 am

I have an attractive female friend who went to Burning Man a few years back -she was really excited. But the festival is very much about "free love" - so nearly every man - including a lot of, in her words "ugly, gross, fat hippies" - made really disgusting, aggressive passes at her and some even exposed themselves. When she would get pissed, everyone told her to "chill" and be "more free". She didn't go back. She said if you don't go with a big, male partner to protect you, it's unpleasant.

I've also know couples in "open relationships" - and usually there's one partner that gets more sex outside the relationship and that leads to resentment. Usually it's the male, but not always. But it never seems to work out in practice.

These Polyfidelic relationships, however, strike me as different. When small, closed groups are faithful to one another over long periods of time. It must be fraught with difficulties, but in talking to the people in them - my strange alarms go off, but not my skank alarms.

But in terms of writing the Andorians, I've asked myself, are our notions of fidelity social constructions? Genetic? What would it be like to be from a culture that had different rules about this kind of thing? But the way I look at it, Andorian society works because it has rules. They may be different, but they still give people a framework for their behavior. Total freedom, while alluring the abstract, doesn't usually work out for people.


There's such a thing as too much sharing.


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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Alelou » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:52 pm

Yeah, I like that your Andorians have rules. I wasn't criticizing that aspect of your story -- I think it's interesting. And frankly I can enjoy all sorts of kinks in fiction -- but in real life, not so much. People having sex in fiction, especially erotica, often strike me as taking mindboggling, carefree delight in all sorts of things that in real life would have WAY serious downsides.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby honeybee » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:59 pm

Oh, I didn't take your post as criticism! I agree with you - in fiction, you can write all sorts of kinky, weird and alien scenarios - and they don't have to have any downsides if you don't want them to! I love how the Andorians don't think it's cheating - if everyone has sex with everyone.

But some things are better left in the realm of fantasy, I think we can all agree. :lol:
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Alelou » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:17 pm

Actually, a really silly plot occurs to me ... if T'Pol tried to get her 'sex education' off some of the erotica sites I've visited she'd be pretty freaked out.

It would certainly be a test of her love if she thought she really had to do all that stuff... I can think of some things that are cliches they appear so often that would be 1) really distasteful to her, and 2) probably pretty shocking to Trip.

Of course, our girl knows how to do scientific research, so hopefully she'd know better. But it could be pretty funny watching that play out...
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Silverbullet » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:05 pm

Alelou, what is a nice girl like you visiting places like that? If for no ohter reason than I have heard sites lke that are loaded with Virus and Trojans I would stay away from them in addition to any repugnance I would feel.

but hey, that is just me. Too damned old I guess
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Alelou » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:41 pm

When did I ever claim to be a nice girl? :twisted:

But thank you, I don't go any place boasting of erotic stories unless my virus protection has told me it has been tested safe first.

And I've read much kinkier stuff on ff.net and the Warp 5 complex. Or maybe it just seems that way when they're putting characters you "know" through those paces. Yikes! :shock:
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby honeybee » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:46 pm

Yeah. The Warp 5 Complex is a good place to go get your kink. You can find that Archer/T'Pol/Trip living in a three way series of stories there. By Koken, I think.

And I was imagining you going to safer erotica sites like Nerve.com rather than porn sites and whatnot. Nerve.com is totally respectable. :lol:

I've seen stories where T'Pol watches porn to learn what to do in Harbinger, but I love the idea of her stumbling into erotica/porn that is beyond the norm - and thinking Trip will expect this stuff of her.

If you write it, Alelou - I'll beta it for you! 8)
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby pdsldl » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:51 pm

Unfortunately, most of the smut/porn out there makes sex generic and boring. It's all about the act with no romance or connection between the participants. Totally unappealing and just Yuck. But then again for a Vulcan who has been taught to suppress her emotions and has no sexual experience it might seem normal.
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Re: A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

Postby Alelou » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:53 pm

I don't know if I'd have the nerve, but I definitely don't have the time -- at least until the semester's over. I'll keep it in mind, though.
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