Science and Fiction in Science Fiction

[pdsldl]

Okay, I'll put it this way. The criteria seem to be that anything proven to be true or not proven to be false is allowed. Has it been proven that the mind cannot cause such changes? With a definitive statement about what the brain can or cannot do, I would require thorough proof because (and please correct me if my limited understanding is wrong in this) I believe our knowledge of the human brain is very limited at this time. Growing by leaps and bounds but still very limited. Also, in the name of science, I believe something that is scientifically sound must be proven.

My writing recently has become a non-issue, but I can understand FULLY how someone will avoid writing a story because they do not want the rain of comments about the impossibility of accidental pregnancy. I offered a scenario that seems as unlikely as something else more accepted and scientifically unproven in the hopes that writers that wish to craft a story about such a thing would feel free to do so while those that oppose can at least take my suggestion and continue in peace.

These changes must take place on the cellular level and cannot be domne by the brain. If these changes were to take place the being would not be the same being it was before the changes took place because their DNA would have been restructured and no longer be compatible with the original DNA.

[crystalswolf]

"Cannot be done" Proven?

No longer compatible but does it have to be? If I remember correctly, gametes are unlike other cells of the body because they only contain half of the DNA.

[pdsldl]

Yes. The DNA is what genetically defines what a species is and to change that means you change the species. The gametes have one parents DNA and it combines with the other parents similar gametes containing their DNA to hash out the dominant recessive traits etc... in the new cells that make up the fetus. Very simplistic view of what takes place but changing cells/DNA to make two species compatible would render them a different species than they were before. They'd have to both be changed to be extremely similar if not the same. As Distracted said that is what a species is. Beings that have the same DNA that can combine to procreate.

[crystalswolf]

I wasn't talking about what happens to the gamete but the fact that the human body can store it without problems and its genetics are different (only half of the parent) from the beginning and definitely different after conception.

[pdsldl]

I wasn't talking about what happens to the gamete but the fact that the human body can store it without problems and its genetics are different (only half of the parent) from the beginning and definitely different after conception.

I don't think the gamete only has half of of the parents DNA/genetics. I think it has all the DNA it's just a special cell that combines with the other parents during fertilization to create something totally different by using a 50/50 combination of the two. But the gamete would still have to change for two different species to procreate.

[crystalswolf]

I started to wonder if the wonky memory was creeping up again. Haven't really thought about all of this in years. Just looked it up and it does seem like they only contain half the genetic material. Pretty much it's half and half = one new whole.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/224938/gamete

[pdsldl]

Okay, but it still doesn't help them combine naturally if the two halves are from different species. There would be no map in those cells for that to occur so a doctor/scientist would have to manipulate things so they could match up and produce a zygote that will be viable and develop into a baby.

[Aquarius]

Okay, I've read some of the replies to the thread...and admittedly I got a little dizzy, partly from the controversy, and partly from being already frazzled between having finals on top of me and having a friend who's in the hospital and not doing too well.

So I'm going to mostly confine my remarks to the topic with only limited knowledge of what was posted before me. Sorry, I know...I generally get annoyed when people post without reading the topic through, but it's just been that kind of day, people.

In general, I'll say this: I can't wrap my head around it when people read something they know is sci-fi and say they think it's "too farfetched." That's kind of the point. So what if we don't know how to (fill in the blank) right now; the idea is to speculate on a future where such things are possible through technology. And yes, there is even a fantasy element in Star Trek, due to all the creatures with powers they encounter from time to time. I can understand maybe finding stories more realistic if they're inspired by what we can do now technologically, but I do feel it's overly dismissive to say it isn't any good if it isn't based on science we have today. To me that's akin to...I don't know...going down to Decon and complaining that there's too much sex. It's science fiction.

Now, if this is still about interspecies pregnancy...I don't have a fancy medical degree, but to be honest, almost this very topic came up between me and my high school biology teacher, who was a Trekkie. I had asked this in reference to Spock (yeah, for me high school was back in the stone age when there was only ONE series to follow and a handful of movies!). I have also discussed this topic with my mom, who is a registered nurse and was a whiz in all her biology courses (and a Trekkie!). So the conclusions I came to a long time ago go something like this: An accidental, medically unsupervised pregnancy CAN happen between a Vulcan and a human, however it's doubtful the mother would be able to carry it for very long. Sperm could fertilize egg just fine, but because of the "alien" elements, it's likely that the mother would miscarry before she even realized she was pregnant. Keep in mind this question was originally asked in context of the mother being a human woman (Amanda), so the way my mother explained it to me, miscarriages happen because it's nature's way of taking care of things when there's something really wrong with the baby, and it's common for women to miscarry very early on without really realizing it--it often gets blown off as a really bad period or something. Now, I suppose it's open for debate whether or not T'Pol menstruates like a human woman, but even so, it goes with the assumption that a Vulcan mother, too, would likely lose the pregnancy early on, because the body is designed to reject anything it perceives to be too damaged or foreign.

For this reason, I've always imagined a hybrid pregnancy to require lots of medical intervention--possibly test tube conception and genetic manipulation, and then implantation into the mother later. And lots of anti-rejection drugs.

Now, I know that people have mentioned complications like mom and baby having different species' blood. Humans have a similar thing that can happen within ourselves, when Rh incompatibility occurs. (Basically, mom and baby have different blood types.) According to what little research I've done on this subject, that isn't usually a problem during first pregnancies unless there's something wrong, mother's blood and baby's blood don't mix--that's all taken care of through the placenta. So in the case of a Vulcan/human hybrid, it would be logical to assume that some of the genetic manipulation has to do with making sure the placenta takes care of the Vulcan/human differences as it would account for blood type differences in a normal human pregnancy.

Then, this from the website I was reading:

However, during delivery, the mother's and baby's blood can intermingle. If this happens, the mother's body recognizes the Rh protein as a foreign substance and can begin producing antibodies (protein molecules in the immune system that recognize, and later work to destroy, foreign substances) against the Rh proteins introduced into her blood.

Other ways Rh-negative pregnant women can be exposed to the Rh protein that might cause antibody production include blood transfusions with Rh-positive blood, miscarriage, and ectopic pregnancy.

Rh antibodies are harmless until the mother's second or later pregnancies. If she is ever carrying another Rh-positive child, her Rh antibodies will recognize the Rh proteins on the surface of the baby's blood cells as foreign, and pass into the baby's bloodstream and attack those cells. This can lead to swelling and rupture of the baby's RBCs. A baby's blood count can get dangerously low when this condition, known as hemolytic or Rh disease of the newborn, occurs.

So it would be "logical" to assume a Vulcan woman's body may react similarly to a fetus with human blood.

Basically, it looks like with today's technology, this is prevented with some sort of anti-rejection drug, which dovetails nicely into the assumption for the need for anti-rejection drugs in the first place. If anyone's curious, this site is what I was looking at, but all you have to do is google "Rh incompatibility" to get the information.

Basically, I'm all for an author using creative solutions around the problem of "we cant' do that with today's current technology," but I also agree with the notion that it's a little more realistic if these creative solutions are based in what we know or at least theorize to be true today. In the case of an "accidental" pregnancy, I'd have to be honest and say it would pull me out of the story if T'Pol were able to carry it to term just fine without any medical intervention beyond the standard prenatal checkups. I wouldn't be able to buy it if the problems inherent in the situation were just ignored, given what we know about human biology. (And keep in mind, I'm saying this as a lay person who just paid attention in school and not much more than that.)

And if an author says it's possible because of midichlorians, I'll just go off.

[Pegmumm]

In a mammalian pregnancy, the placenta is attached to the uterus by little buttons that attach and separate like velcro, peeling away as the placenta is cast out of the body. The blood supplies are indeed separate unless there's an accident. Daughter in law nearly lost a full term infant thanks to a blow from my no good stepson. The placenta started siphoning off the baby's blood supply thanks to a defect in which there was one artery and two veins to the placenta instead of two arteries and one vein. Luckily the infant survived even though he had only 25% of his blood volume remaining. Daughter in law was sick as a dog from an accidental mixing of their two blood types when the baby was taken C section. The baby is now 12 years old and has lasting damage from the incident.

Star trek is an imaginary universe... and it may not even be our universe.
I say go with your imagination. And damn the naysayers. If we weren't adding the speculation about the future into our writing, it would only be fiction and might as well be set in the current day.

In your universe, you are God.
Go with it.
peg

[Transwarp]

...but I can understand FULLY how someone will avoid writing a story because they do not want the rain of comments about the impossibility of accidental pregnancy.

Gosh, I hope not. And I don't recall ever reading a comment from anyone that said an author should not have written a particular story. In fact, I've read more than one story involving an accidental pregnancy. [Caveat: I have not read everything posted on this site. Yet.] The most recent I've read is 'Dusk' by Honeybee, and as I recall there was not a single comment about the impossibility of T'Pol's accidental pregnancy. But Honeybee preempted the comments within the text of her story, and I would encourage anyone who needs an impossible or implausible plot device in their story to check out 'Dusk' and take note of how Honeybee pulled it off.

But even after taking all due diligence, its likely you (the writer) won't satisfy all your readers. (Likely? Make that 'certain'.) There are just too many different viewpoints and opinions out here in reader land. But I maintain that a comment such as "You had 'X' happen in your story, but 'X' is scientifically impossible' is a perfectly legitimate comment. To me, it's on the same order as 'You had T'Pol eating meat, which is out of character for a Vulcan.' In neither case would I think the commenter was trying to prevent anyone from writing such a story.

CW, I respect that you do not feel the need to explain or justify any element of your stories. (I remember the "hang a lantern on it" reference from Stargate, and got a chuckle from that.) I have no issue with that at all, nor (I suspect) does anyone else here on this site. All I'm attempting to do is explain my own particular world-view, and (perhaps) offer some insight to other writers on ways they can broaden the appeal of their stories. It's free advice, worth every penny you paid for it.

[Lady Rainbow]

Now, if this is still about interspecies pregnancy...I don't have a fancy medical degree, but to be honest, almost this very topic came up between me and my high school biology teacher, who was a Trekkie. I had asked this in reference to Spock (yeah, for me high school was back in the stone age when there was only ONE series to follow and a handful of movies!). I have also discussed this topic with my mom, who is a registered nurse and was a whiz in all her biology courses (and a Trekkie!). So the conclusions I came to a long time ago go something like this: An accidental, medically unsupervised pregnancy CAN happen between a Vulcan and a human, however it's doubtful the mother would be able to carry it for very long. Sperm could fertilize egg just fine, but because of the "alien" elements, it's likely that the mother would miscarry before she even realized she was pregnant. Keep in mind this question was originally asked in context of the mother being a human woman (Amanda), so the way my mother explained it to me, miscarriages happen because it's nature's way of taking care of things when there's something really wrong with the baby, and it's common for women to miscarry very early on without really realizing it--it often gets blown off as a really bad period or something. Now, I suppose it's open for debate whether or not T'Pol menstruates like a human woman, but even so, it goes with the assumption that a Vulcan mother, too, would likely lose the pregnancy early on, because the body is designed to reject anything it perceives to be too damaged or foreign.

For this reason, I've always imagined a hybrid pregnancy to require lots of medical intervention--possibly test tube conception and genetic manipulation, and then implantation into the mother later. And lots of anti-rejection drugs.

Yup, this. That would be the mostly likely scenario for a Vulcan/Human hybrid child...an early miscarriage because of the mother's body "rejecting" the fetus. That would be the reason for /very/ early intervention i.e. in the first month or so (genetic manipulation, anti-rejection drugs, etc.). Especially if the mother's body has a very aggressive (and efficient) immune system. (That's what happened to me: two early miscarriages before my son. didn't know it at the time, but I had a chronic immuno-related disease at the time, that didn't go full-blown after the birth of my second child).

And if an author says it's possible because of midichlorians, I'll just go off.

Yeah, TnT's unborn child will be a Jedi-in-training, with his/her dad's mechanical skills and mom's mental abilities.

CW, I respect that you do not feel the need to explain or justify any element of your stories. (I remember the "hang a lantern on it" reference from Stargate, and got a chuckle from that.) I have no issue with that at all, nor (I suspect) does anyone else here on this site. All I'm attempting to do is explain my own particular world-view, and (perhaps) offer some insight to other writers on ways they can broaden the appeal of their stories. It's free advice, worth every penny you paid for it.

Point well taken, Transwarp. As long as people can discuss their various viewpoints in a respectful way, and still be open-minded to other ideas, it's worth the discussion.

[Aquarius]

LR--I'm glad you put a finer point in it by mentioning the mother's immune system. I've been so wrapped up in putting the semester away and all the stress associated with my sick friend, my thoughts don't necessarily come out complete and cogent. At any rate, two of my stories deal directly with this issue and another mentions it, though I didn't develop the specifics so much, because these were very short prices focusing on TnT's relationship more so than the process of having a baby. I figure I'll tackle that in a longer fic later.

In response to something TW said--I totally agree, we're never going to please everyone. That's just the law. And I've never seen a reader say, "You shouldn't have written that," either. I think what CW is talking about are those situations where it seems like a lot of people are dog-piling on an author, or even when one reader just kind of jackhammers away and won't let their point drop, almost seeming to try to argue the author out of writing their story their way, or worse, to try to shame them for writing it. I totally like what you said about offering suggestions with a mind toward creating broader appeal for a story; that's totally constructive, and I wish more people would frame their feedback that way (and maybe even directly say that's the spirit in which they make their comments), because it'd go a long way toward keeping authors from getting freaked out. When responders use language like "you can't do that" or "that can't happen" or "good thing you didn't write it that way," it comes off as a shut-down that suggests social pressure toward conformity to how someone else thinks the story should be written, and I think that's what CW is objecting to.

[honeybee]

But Honeybee preempted the comments within the text of her story, and I would encourage anyone who needs an impossible or implausible plot device in their story to check out 'Dusk' and take note of how Honeybee pulled it off.

Thanks, TW. Dusk was a story that the entire premise - the whole plot - depended on an accidental pregnancy coming to term. And the pregnancy was planned by me from the beginning although it didn't happen until the middle of the story. A few people mentioned that they thought the accidental pregnancy was implausible - but I did have to doctor explain how rare this was and how it had happened (TnT both happen to have genes that make it possible) - and make it clear that she would need help carrying it to term. Another important plot point was that, like Spock, the child would be essentially Vulcan, Vulcan genes dominating human ones for the most part. So, that helped explain why T'Pol was able to carry the child to term with a little help.

To those who do think it is impossible. I say, probably. But that didn't stop me from writing the story nor did it stop people from enjoying the story. I do plan to write a sequel to Family Secrets where the same pregnancy happens. Little T'Mir made it clear at the end of Dusk that she wants to come into the RU, so I want to do that. I'll do the same thing.

[crystalswolf]

Missed a bit, have been sick all day and really can't stay on long but thought everyone may be interested in this if it hasn't been posted yet:

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/0 ... mera.shtml

Scientists create “interspecies” rodent using embryonic stem cells
"Although both are rodents, the wood mouse (Apodemus sylvaticus) and the house mouse (Mus musculus) have evolved separately for up to 20 million years."

Edit: BTW, I didn't mean for this to support anyone's view. Just thought, because of the topic, it would interest people.

[panyasan]

Now, if this is still about interspecies pregnancy...I don't have a fancy medical degree, but to be honest, almost this very topic came up between me and my high school biology teacher, who was a Trekkie. I had asked this in reference to Spock (yeah, for me high school was back in the stone age when there was only ONE series to follow and a handful of movies!). I have also discussed this topic with my mom, who is a registered nurse and was a whiz in all her biology courses (and a Trekkie!). So the conclusions I came to a long time ago go something like this: An accidental, medically unsupervised pregnancy CAN happen between a Vulcan and a human, however it's doubtful the mother would be able to carry it for very long. Sperm could fertilize egg just fine, but because of the "alien" elements, it's likely that the mother would miscarry before she even realized she was pregnant. Keep in mind this question was originally asked in context of the mother being a human woman (Amanda), so the way my mother explained it to me, miscarriages happen because it's nature's way of taking care of things when there's something really wrong with the baby, and it's common for women to miscarry very early on without really realizing it--it often gets blown off as a really bad period or something. Now, I suppose it's open for debate whether or not T'Pol menstruates like a human woman, but even so, it goes with the assumption that a Vulcan mother, too, would likely lose the pregnancy early on, because the body is designed to reject anything it perceives to be too damaged or foreign.

For this reason, I've always imagined a hybrid pregnancy to require lots of medical intervention--possibly test tube conception and genetic manipulation, and then implantation into the mother later. And lots of anti-rejection drugs.

I think we have now four threads about T'Pol getting pregnant, so I am expecting a lot of preggie T'Pols stories.
As for me, all the stuff made me a little dizzy, but it made me change a story line I was working on and I liked the new one story line better. I only got one problem and Aquarius' view used fitted perfectly into a solution. Thanks!
Crystalwolf, thanks for the link with science information about embryonic stem cells.
It's is very interesting and usefull.