Layers of friendship: Trip and Archer

[WarpGirl]

Well I'm not sure AG was that much of a part of the relationship. There was a huge amount of rivalry between AG and J. Archer. And I'm pretty sure Trip would take Archer's side. I don't think Archer was always good for Trip. Especially with Vulcans, Trip went from professional anger to some slight bigotry by the time Enterprise. But after getting into the Expanse I can't say I would call them close friends. So although I take CT at his word courtesy of jT I have to say I don't see their relationship suriving as closest friends. Malcolm and T'Pol filled up those spaces.

[Silverbullet]

Persomal Opinion. always thought that Connor could act rings around Bakkula every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I have an idea that Connor must have been aware of that by watching the days shoot after work.

[WarpGirl]

I'm pretty sure that none of us would ever know that for a fact.

[pdsldl]

An actor knows by watching the other actors around them who is good or not but CT would never say he was better. And I agree he is a much better actor than Bakula but it would be unprofessional for a fellow cast member to comment on the other cast members abilities. CT said they were friends off set and that he appreciated Bakula's professionalism on the set and how he made the atmosphere at work pleasant as the lead on the show and that he learned from him.

AG and Archer were rivals but their competition was professional. They were very close friends so I can't see how AG wouldn't have been around Trip and part of his friendship with Archer. They parted ways when Archer beat him out for the captaincy of Enterprise and he shipped out. Until then they would have all been working on getting the warp engine up and running so Enterprise could be built. Trip may have favored Archer but unless he wanted to commit career suicide and hamper his chances of going out into space he wouldn't have said anything openly in case AG won out over Archer as captain. He and Archer may have been friends but Trip had ambitions and I think he was smart enough to know getting between the two professionally would not be a good place to be. Better to try to remain neutral and learn as much as he could from them and hope his assistance with the warp drive would give him a leg up when they picked their crew.

Ct said they broke up for awhile and got back but I didn't see it in action. They were close but it was different. More like I am with some long distance friends I would miss terribly and grieve the loss of connection to if they were no longer out there but we aren't as close as we once were. From what we saw I can't see them being able to regain what they lost from the Cogenitor episode and the expanse, especially during a Romulan war we didn't get to see them fight. That and Trip's priorities changed when he and T'Pol became involved.

[Silverbullet]

WG, I doubt if Connor said anything. I believe he let his acting speak for him. When he was given his head he could chew up the Scenery. In Strange new World he was Brilliant. In unexpected he was quite good. In Cease Fire he was evry inch a Captain. His Body Languge said "I am in command." When T-Pol consoles him over the death of his Sister Connor gives a great performance as a grieving Trip.

[Aquarius]

Lovely story, panyasan.

Regarding the "split" between Archer and Trip after "Cogenitor"...not so much with friends, but in a family dynamic, you often see situations when one family member doesn't like the other much right now, but they still "love" each other, if you know what I mean. They may go through periods of not getting along, not wanting to talk to each other unless they have to, may even claim they can't stand the sight of each other...but when the chips are down, they still stick up for each other and help each other because the family bond transcends whatever difference or dispute they're having.

As we recently discussed in my psychology of human aging class, longtime close friends can assume the role of a family member. My best friend and I have been friends since we were 10--that's a 30-year friendship. Sure, we hit a few bumps here and there, sometimes ending up not talking for a while, but we always came back to each other because we realized "okay, this is stupid," and we needed each other.

I think Archer and Trip might safely fall into that category. Also, the dynamic between male-male and female-female relationships is often different. Individual mileage varies, but generally women drag fights and the aftermath out longer, whereas I've seen men come close to punching each other out and then ten minutes later it's "Hey, let's go get a beer." Guys are prone to just getting stuff out of the way faster and not dwelling on it. (NOTE: individual mileage varies; generalizations happen in psych because the absolutes just don't exist.)

[justTripn]

Just so I don't go starting rumors, When CT said that "We broke up, but then we got back together" he was joking. The implication was "who worries about this--a fictional relationship between two men?"

Also writers had intentions, the actors played the roles, and we are free to interpret the body of work. But I just think the Archer is a jerk interpretation was NOT what was intended by anyone (actors or writers) so we can't really say that is what the show was about. Analogously I could list a number of episodes where Kirk went chasing alien women rather than focusing on the job at hand, however "Kirk is a jerk and Spock probably hates him for it" is not a valid interpretation of that show.

[WarpGirl]

Well I agree with you jT that the "Archer is a jerk" interpitation was completely unintentional on the part of all concerned. However I think the concept of the character was never really defined to begin with. We were told a lot about who he would be, but the writing was so inconsistent that he did come off as a jerk many times. I just don't think he would accept Trip's changing priorities. With T'Pol, with Malcolm, or with his career. He's used to Trip putting him first.

[panyasan]

I agree with WG that one of the problems was that we were sometimes told what Archer was like, not showed. Both men, Trip and Archer, had their flaws, we all have. I sometimes got the feeling the writers wanted to show Archer as a regular guy, a person with faults, but that didn't work out. Instead, Trip become the Everyman, not Archer. Trip grows, he became more his own man in the relationship with Archer. I really liked WG's explanation of Trip being 22 years old and the mentor-student relationship in the beginning, however I always thought in the scene where T'Pol reports to duty (Broken Bow), they come off more like real buddies.
As for Archer, he does grow as well, but much slower. Many people disliked Archer for his so called biogot actions against Vulcans, but you see a change there as well. Maybe Archer only aim was to forfill his fathers dream and later on Daniels dream and wasn't so interested in other cultures and sticking to what he knew - that is a natural reaction. Unfortunaly, the way the writers wrote him (especially in season one and two) it doesn't make him very sympathic. A nice scene in season one or two about him adressing his prejudice in a good conversation with Soval for example would have made a world of difference.

[Alelou]

Archer became interesting to me in Season 3. He was pretty much either blah or annoying before then. I know everyone thinks he was a shit to Trip in Season 3 but I think he was struggling with a horrible situation the only way he knew how, and I thought it was interesting to watch him do it. I love the irony of how he became a "hero" vs. what he actually had to do to get the job done.

Unfortunately in Season 4 he sometimes was portrayed as a really annoying Super!Archer, when I wish they had continued with that arc way beyond "Home."

Aquarius, I like your analysis. I can see Trip and Archer having a fraternal relationship.

[panyasan]

I agree. Archer becomes interesting in season 3, because you see that he is struggling and not this Superman. I don't think he treated Trip badly, but he was so occopied with his mission it consumed all his attention. The brother anology makes sense to me, for me it explains a lot of Trip and Archers interaction with each other.

[Silverbullet]

True, Archer had alot on his Plate in Season three. But I always got the feeling that he was so used to ordering rather than asking he sometimes let that slip in with Trip. One of the morst irritating things the writers had Archer do was to say "That's an Order." His Subordinates weren't stupid they knew an order when they heard one. Archer didn't have to tell them he had just ordered them to do something.

In that way he had came off as a bit arraogant in Demons. They are all standing on the stairs. Archers says "clap Louder, That's an Order." There was a shot of t-Pol's face and she looked at him like he was an Ass. Right aftrwwards the crew were talking about how they had helped get talks started and Archer says "That;s Enough." The crew are subrodinates not slaves. Archer didn't come across as a very good Commander in that scene.

I guess my main problem was that Trip and Archer could be freinds but not in a superior, Subordinate situation where the Enterprise was going in to a very dangerous space to face a very dangerous Enemy. At a time like that Friendship has to be set aside.

[WarpGirl]

Well as someone who has five "brothers" not really related to me, I have to say I don't see "brothers" in Trip and Archer. I see "college buddies" or fraternity brothers. Not true family ties. I don't think Archer is capable of giving that much in any relationship. As his own character Archer never impressed me in any way. It wasn't because he was "flawed" all men are. But the way Archer was written he never had to grow out of them. We think he moves on from his bigotry with Vulcans but then in *the_abomination* he treats T'Pol horribly concerning Shran. Now I know here *the_abomination* doesn't exist. However I just woke up, I've had no coffee and my brain is sluggish. So you'll just have to deal with that example for now. Also Archer was just a bad Captain for me. Not only because of his decisions, but because his personality to me isn't a good one for a Captain.

For the record Season 3 is not the season I think Archer is awful to Trip. Archer is awful to everyone then. Seasons 2 & 4 are the seasons I'd like to rip his spleen out for regarding Trip. I hope I kept the vitrol down in this post, if I didn't I'm sorry.

[Alelou]

Maybe because Trip and Archer actually get along with each other a LOT better than my two brothers, I can see it that way. People from contented families with close siblings may think it's nuts.

But I think it's a common perception, judging from the number of times I see "Uncle Jon" when fanfic authors have TnT having kids. The people we call uncle and aunt even though they aren't are clearly people with whom our parents have a family-like relationship, even when there is no blood tie.

[WarpGirl]

Well my brothers have no blood ties to me at all. So I understand what people are saying about Trip and Archer. And believe me I get along with most of them better than my blood family. However I just do not see that with Trip and Archer. Trip's reaction to Lizzy's death and his reaction to Archer's "deaths" are very different. And Archer was so darn inconsistent that it was laughable. I just don't see brothers with them.