A word about the novels

[Asso]

For some reason, this is one topic where there is no middle ground: you either like the books or you don't. So far I've seen little indication the "do"s have been able to say anything to sway the "don't"s and vice versa.

Discussion is fine. An exchange of ideas is always stimulating. But over the past several years, I've seen way too many hurt feelings because of these books. Actually I believe there have been several people who no longer felt they were welcome here because of their views on the relaunch. I would hate to see that happen again. I like all of you too much for that.

Everyone has the right to their opinion and everyone has the right to disagree. But like religion and politics, this is just one of those emotionally charged topics that tends to divide rather than unite.

Wise woman.

[Transwarp]

Wise woman

Indeed.

Don't worry, Dinah, I'm not going anywhere.

[Alelou]

I've seen wars blow up here over the books and over the Star Trek movie and over particular fics and over "TPTB" and *the_abomination* and what's canon and I suppose over politics, too. I think the only complaint I would have is when the same criticism gets repeated multiple times within the same argument as if simple repetition will accomplish anything.

But, you know what? Frankly, the only people who do this to a really extreme degree are the very people who are least likely to ever 'get' that. We all fall on a spectrum of how black and white we think the universe is and some of us are at the extremes. That's just the way it is. If you really think you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, you may indeed feel the urgent need to keep hammering your point away even at the risk of becoming tiresome to others.

Personally I have not noticed that Transwarp falls into this category. If someone has an objection to the premise of a fic and says so, but then moves on to give some thoughtful and not entirely negative feedback, I don't see the problem.

If you're worried about the publisher somehow being abashed by this, I'd say that's kind of unrealistic. What the publishers will notice is whether sales drop off. Even if for some reason they decided to google the book title and read commentary here, they would have to notice that we're a community of what -- maybe 25-50 active board members at most? We are clearly TnT fanatics AND fanfic authors, which means like most writers we all have our 'own' vision of how everything should be done.

The books are officially licensed corporate efforts. Some of us find those results homogenized and unsatisfying, while some of us are delighted to see the body of the loved one with some life in it, and quite willing to embrace it. Either opinion is valid. IDIC.

[honeybee]

I'm not worried about the publishers, but I do worry about authors getting discouraged, whether pro or not. People have been driven away because of reaction to their comments but so have authors been driven away by the tenor of comments.

As for knowledge of the development of the books. Clark, Martin & Mangels have all given extensive interviews and spoken at cons about the process. I know several fans that have personally spoken to Mangels. My impression is that all three of them are hard working and sincere - and in a world where the negative always seems to resonate with people more than the positive - I tend to feel protective of people with good motives.

TW, the last thing I would ever want is for anyone to feel driven away - but my comments were informed by the situation in CW's thread - and the feeling that those with a willingness and desire to discuss a story with an unusual premise should be able to do so without having to constantly having to go back to the defense of the premise.

TW, I've never, ever thought that you had bad motives in any of your posts. But I do think (and I direct this at myself and everyone) that when lobbing criticism - there's more of a potential that readers will take things the wrong way.

I think that there are ways to address this, but as Alelou says, it depend on people adhering to systems.

[Reanok]

Here's a link from a podcast fromTreks into scfi Andy & Miccheal go into alot of detail into the story of how Margaret asked them to write the teaser in Last Full Measure that Trip was alive in the 23rd century and The Good that Men do link http://treksinsifi.com/podcast_notes/?p=176 Here's anew MIcheal Martin podcast interview from Monday night you can also find one about the Kobayashi Maru novel from last year. link http://www.blogtalkradio.com

[Transwarp]

Honeybee, I find I must agree with you. Since I have no reason to think otherwise, I must believe Martin & Mangels had the best of motives and intentions. They also strike me as talented and hard-working writers. I sincerely hope nothing I've written on this site can be construed as impugning their motives (although I fear sometimes I get careless when I'm on a roll...)

If they do google the comments on this site, I would hope they notice that they have as many ardent defenders as they do detractors. They are entitled to much satisfaction from that fact.

And finally, you are spot-on when you say that there's always a potential that readers [of criticism] will take things the wrong way. I know from personal experience that this is true, and I've learned that it helps if I consider it to be a failure on my part for not making my criticism more clear, rather than blaming the reader for his obtuseness! Mostly, though, everyone on this site has responded to my comments, both positive and negative, in the spirit I intended them.

[pdsldl]

I've read the novels because they attempted to undo the abomination and are giving Trip and T'Pol a future together, filling in some of the blanks about the Romulan War and hopefully putting the Enterprise crew back together again. The whole Trip--Romulan spy thing was beyond ridiculous to me and the Trip being Vulcan thing is even more so but I'm willing to fore-go my objections if they manage to satisfy me on the previously mentioned items.

I wish the authors. etc... were free to do this all right but they aren't so we're stuck taking what we can get. Doesn't mean we have to do so without voicing our dislike of how they went about it. Their work is in the public forum so I'm sure they understand the fans feelings. And I would bet they considered them when the novels were written. From what I've read most of them seem pretty familiar with the fans reactions and would have anticipated most of what may be being written on forums etc across the net. There are only so many canon inconsistencies they can address otr run the risk of getting bogged down in the past instead of moving forward into the future. If they can manage to come up with something plausible to connect Enterprise to TOS I'll be happy. I had hoped they would explain how in canon Humans were at war for years with Romulans and never saw one in person but since they had Trip posing as one that will never happen.

[Asso]

Trip a spy. Nah!
But... and if behind this, was there something else?

[Alelou]

Trip a spy. Nah!
But... and if behind this, was there something else?

Huh?

I don't care for the spy premise, but I could see where they could argue to a bunch of corporate weenies that this kind of thing had been done in Star Trek before ... remember "The Enterprise Incident" from TOS? Kirk went undercover as a Romulan in a half-baked revision of an actual event from US/N. Korean naval history, if I'm remembering it correctly. (I may not be.)

[honeybee]

AAAWWWW ---- I love that episode - although Shatner looked very weird made up as a Romulan - that is the episode that gave us the Romulan Commander (the only even remotely realistic love interest for Spock) and her absolutely fabulous decadent 1960s era wardrobe. My grandmother totally dressed like that!

It was based on a big cold war naval incident - but it was also based on the fact that the Russian had - gasp - female astronauts. This of course made them twisted and wrong. And only people as evil as communists/Romulans would have a female in command.

[justTripn]

AAAWWWW ---- I love that episode - although Shatner looked very weird made up as a Romulan - that is the episode that gave us the Romulan Commander (the only even remotely realistic love interest for Spock) and her absolutely fabulous decadent 1960s era wardrobe. My grandmother totally dressed like that!

It was based on a big cold war naval incident - but it was also based on the fact that the Russian had - gasp - female astronauts. This of course made them twisted and wrong. And only people as evil as communists/Romulans would have a female in command.

Wow. I didn't pick up on that cultural back story, but it fits with other parts of the original series, including that shocking last episode where the woman was prevented from being a Starfleet Captain because of her sex and so she goes on to confirm the sterotype about the unfittness of her sex for command by highjacking Kirk's body in order to be Captain in his body, and then having a neurotic, emotional meltdown. She was dragged off crying. And the final words of the episode were "She could have been happy, if only . . . ."

Leaving me to shout at the screen, IF ONLY WHAT? I think it was my husband who had to explain that she could have been happy if she had simply married and stayed home and had kids, lol . . . .

[Aquarius]

Actually I don't think it was because she was a woman. It was because she was unstable, which led her to believe it was because she was a woman.

[honeybee]

Oh, I don't know Aquarius - I've always taken that episode to have a clear thesis: women in command is unnatural and wrong and the women who desire command must by definition be unstable.

I even think GR cited that episode as one that he regretted for the sexism, as he was trying to move the universe forward. (I've heard that at least.)

As for the Romulan Commander, the idea that she is twisted and wrong and "alien" because she is in command is totally undermined by the fact that she is awesome and a true match for Spock. So in that episode, the actress and writers undermine the sexist message of the text.

[Aquarius]

Oh, it came off as sexist...but I thought I remembered Kirk saying something about it being because she couldn't pass her psych test.

[Lady Rainbow]

Hmmm...women can't be in command?

Then what about Erika Hernandez?

(Granted, it's a reflection of the times...different for ENT (2000's) than for TOS (1960's), but still...so much for being "forward")

And I LOVED the Romulan Commander! Wardrobe, poise, potential love interest for Spock...