"The Understanding"

[ginamr]

I suppose I still don't understand this 100%, but I can see Crystalwolf's POV on this. I know B & B made Koss seem like a real bully in "Home", but I can see T'Pol marrying Koss to protect her daughter from censorship or even to provide her with a father figure in Trip's absence. I can also see Koss allowing T'Mir contact with her birth father and even over time accepting T'Pol's intimacy with Trip. Though admittedly I don't think Trip would be happy about her having sex with Koss.

But, based on the research I've been doing for my preggers T'Pol story, it would take a great deal of aid from Phlox to carry the child to term or for the child to even be conceived. I suppose it's possible for her to get pregnant without aid, but to avoid a miscarriage she would need to actively take medications and adjust her diet.

Overall, though the how of T'Mir's conception is a bit of a stretch, I can see the logic of the plot. I think it's kind of sweet actually. A great story, Crystalwolf, and an interesting take on events after TGMTD.

[crystalswolf]

Ah, refreshed... somewhat.

Now, as for assisted/unassisted Vulcan-Human conception (apart from pregnancy). As far as I could tell, there was a backlash when Phlox said he assisted because it was assumed Spock was a natural birth. This does not make sense scientifically, but then there were a few things the original series liked to fiddle with (as well as the other series once or twice). At least this is my understanding of the situation.

I also researched the idea and could not find one specific statement, in official material, that Vulcan-Human hybrids required help. I've only seen specific events described. Usually when this happens, there is some ambiguity and it's possibly an explosive topic (hmm).

Now, thinking about it, it was never said that Vulcans and Humans could not conceive unassisted. T'Pol said that they "have never been able to" which is definitely not they "can't". Phlox said he found a way to combine the genomes, but does not say they can't on their own. We see something like this in RL with women trying to get pregnant.

"they can combine" can either support the idea of assisted conception or negate it. I personally, and for the sake of the story, choose to view all of the above as "natural conception".

If you want to tell me you don't agree, fair enough. If you want to tell me I'm wrong, please give me some canon to back it up. Seriously, I'm open for help in correcting my mistakes but that does not mean someone else's opinion is more valid than mine.

I don't mind stretching belief. Heck, I do it each time I watch/read sci-fi or fantasy. The book made the most out of a lousy situation (*the_abomination*). Whether you like the book or not, the story still crosses out what had happened in *the_abomination*.

[Silverbullet]

CW, not to be argumentative. but for my claifircation. You have Koss agreeing toa three way marriage. I guess you are asying that a three way marrriiage is acceptable onVulcan. My question is. If that is so why the Death Matches? Why risk getting killed if you and the other guy can marry and share the female. Since thre are Death matches and the winner is the guy still alive then it would seem that a Vulcan Male won't and don't share females. Three way marriages would not be accceptable on Vulcan. Koss being a traditionalist it would be repugnant to him and he would not go along with it as iit would not be acceptable in his society.

Second, I am sure you have this taken care of in your story. In the beginning of Chapter one T-Mir is happy to be going to Earth to see her Grandparents who she obviously loves. Her Grandparents are looking forward to her visit because they love her.Tucker family accepts TPol. I think tnat T-Pol's best option by far is the Tucker Family. She could go to them, prove she is pregnant with Trip's child (Dna Testing) they would take her in, shelter and protect her and when T-Mir is born help raise the child. T-mir would be raised in a loving environment and would be happy and content. T-Pol would be reasonably happy and content too. If T-Pol wanted to work she could safely leave T-Mir with her Grandparents.

The family of Koss probably would not accept T-Mir because she is half Human. The only reason I can see for T-Pol to marry Koss would be for Financial support. If an unmarried, Pregnant Female could be accepted on Vulcan then T-Pol could be a single Parent. Not sure if Vulcans would have Day Care so T-Pol could go to work.

Anyway, the Tucker family still seems to be T-Pol's best option. After all, T-Pol did rebel against Vulcan society. She may not want her child raised in that soociety. On Earth t-Mir would be far better off.

[crystalswolf]

1st paragraph has already been discussed.

2nd paragraph, valid question. I did think about some options available under the circumstances in the story and this option was one of them. I have a list of stuff to add for chapter 2 since I first wrote it and a detailed description of her options may be among them (depends on how I feel). Either way, I get the feeling you'll probably not agree with it, so consider this the first warning for the 2nd chapter.

3rd paragraph, not applicable to this story.

It's nice, though, that you're concerned with T'Mir's well-being

[Silverbullet]

I am soerry CW, I guess I missed your explanation of why since there are death matches and obviously Vulcan males don't and won't share a Female Three way marriages are acceptable on Vulcan? Doesn't seem to square with the Death Matches. As I said why risk death if you have the option of sharing the female?

Obviously you have a reason why T-Pol doesn't choose to live on Earth with the Tucker family.

I think that the family of Koss would be part of the story. They might object to Koss marrying a woman who is pregnant by a Human and would have a half Human Child. I got the idea from Home that Koss would obey his parents and not go against their wishes. The family yould play a art in the thing. Koss being an Architect woud be working all day. If T-Pol also had to work it would mean leaving T-Mir with family who would completely reject her. Not a good option.

Of course I am concerne dabout T-Mir she is central to your story. She is a key figure. Her happiness and well being should be considered strongly.

You use TGTMD as apointy of departure for your story? In that book and subsequent books T-Pol is a full Commander in Star Fleet and stationed on Enterprise. If Starfleet discovers T-Pol is pregnant they would transfer off Enterprise to Earth. There Medical facilities, Day Care and Tucker family would be available. T-Pol and T-Mir would be better off. Are you going to have T-Pol Resign her comission, go to Vulcan to Marry Koss? Why? T-Pol would be far bettroff on Earth. she could keep her Commision and position, raise T-Mir in a safe environment. Going to vulcan would be iffy compared to living on Earth.

[crystalswolf]

SPOILER!!!:

:thumbsdown:

SPOILER!!!:

:tsktsk:

\\//

[Asso]

I began to be a little tired and annoyed. This sort of issues is like a dialogue between deaf persons.
Everyone sustains his own points of view and anyone wants to understand. Just so, I said EXACTLY that: UNDERSTAND. Because I think the problem is this one.
Here the matter is NOT the defence of the opinions that each person has. The matter is the understanding what each person wants to mean. And, as ALWAYS it happened in the past, once again each person is speaking for himself, without listening to the other.
So, like I did in the past, I prefer to leave. But, before I do that, I feel the need to make some elucidations.

First:

CW, I can certainly empathize with you tonight. Remember, not so long ago, I had people getting all freaked out and judgmental at me--over a warning label.

For the better part of the day, I have been feeling an overwhelming sense of deja vu. Not in terms of the subject matter of the stories, but in terms of backlash.

The idea itself to open such sort of thread has to bring the awareness that EVIDENTLY there can be people who could get pissed off because of the reason itself that pushed to open the thread. So, deja vu or not, ONLY THIS could be the outcome of the thread's opening.

Second:

One thing I never quite understood, ever. There are quite a few things at this site (just as at any other site on the planet) that aren't my cup of tea. But I never felt compelled to announce that I'm not reading them. I just simply (discreetly) don't read them. If I can't gush on about how much I like a story, then I at least like to be in a position where I can be supportive and constructive. If I can't do that, then I just assume I'm not the target audience for the piece.

If I have to be really honest, I don't feel that it is constructive this way of acting. This seems simply to mean: BETTER IF I BE SILENT, IF NOT... What is there of constructive in that?
I feel close to those who HONESTLY said in advance what they will do. And, in addition, explaining their reasons.


Third:
Now it is a matter of fact: actually, there is some difference between males and females.

Here we say: Males' simplicity prevents them from savouring complication; Females' complicatedness prevents them from savouring simplicity.

[Aquarius]

The idea itself to open such sort of thread has to bring the awareness that EVIDENTLY there can be people who could get pissed off because of the reason itself that pushed to open the thread. So, deja vu or not, ONLY THIS could be the outcome of the thread's opening.

No, Asso, not "only this." There is an alternative to "this": behaving like a grown up and not continuously bludgeoning an author when you don't agree. It's one thing to truly try to understand, but it's something else completely to just keep throwing static because what the author wrote doesn't fit neatly into your world view.

You claim that keeping silent when something isn't your cup of tea is not constructive? Let me ask you this: how constructive is it to take up an author's thread arguing about a book you didn't like or a bit of Vulcan physiology you didn't like or whatever? How constructive is it to give an author comments like "Archer/Koss/fill in the blank makes me want to throw up"? How constructive is saying "I'm not reading this?" Same answer for all of the above: it's not. All these kinds of things do is breed resentment. They are not constructive comments that an author can use to fine-tune her craft.

So I'll tell you what, Asso: the next time I don't want to read something because Trip and T'Pol are painfully out of character, the plot is simplistic, the narrative is repetitive and over-expository, how about if I stand up loud and proud and announce that I'm not reading the fic for those reasons? Oh wait--those are constructive things upon which to offer commentary.(Funny, though, how some authors don't like to hear *that* stuff, either.) So...how about if I just decide I don't like dogs any more, so the next time Porthos makes an appearance, I announce to the whole forum that I'm out??? Sorry, but "I'm not reading" comments are NOT "constructive," they accomplish nothing but making the author and maybe a few of your fellow posters think you're doing it to be self-righteous.

Suppose somebody announced that they weren't going to read my "Sex, Lies..." stories based on...whatever. Maybe they don't think sex is funny. Maybe they just don't like sex. Maybe they just don't think *I'm* funny. Whatever. What do you think is going to happen if someone declares they're not going to read it based on these reasons? Is it going to change anything? No. Am I going to change how I write stories based on non-constructive criticism? No. Am I going to get all bent out of shape because I was unable to please one person? No--it'll be a bummer, but I won't lose sleep over it, because not everything is for everybody. So what did it really accomplish? I'll tell you: all would have done is get me annoyed at the person. And maybe a few of my friends would've been annoyed on my behalf. But that's about it. So yeah, Asso--in that instance, silence *is* better. It's called good manners.

As for your gender-biased comment you finished off with, I beg to differ. I know plenty of men who like complex stories and character development...and I know a lot of women who freak if asked to read something where TnT aren't some kind of intergalactic Ward and June Cleaver. So I think that argument just circled the drain and went down.

[honeybee]

I fully admit the thought of T'Pol marrying Koss makes me cringe, but I'm now so curious as to where CW is going to take this that I am looking forward to her next chapter.

As for bludgeoning, I've been on the receiving end of some, and it isn't fun. CW is a big girl who knew she wrote something controversial and I can't speak for her, but I'd rather not wade through half a dozen posts/comments with the same person pounding at the same point. I find it exhausting at times - especially since I've found many people's thoughts on this story to be very interesting.

And, I have to agree with Aquarius. There's a place for constructive criticism, but there's also a place for polite silence. But I suppose it is up to each individual to decide which approach is appropriate.

[ginamr]

I get that not everyone will be into this kind of thing...heck, i've been known to defend my stories, but in the end I accept that I wrote something not everyone agrees with and move on. We can argue forever the merits, but I will say that even if the plot isn't dead on what we Trip/T'Polers like, it was well written and did offer an interesting alternative.

[Asso]

I think I try to be gentle, always, even if sometimes it is difficult to be so.
I desire that people treat me the same way, attempting to be intellectually honest, exactly the way I attempt to do.
I don't like to argue only in order to argue:I defend my ideas and my feelings, exactly the way that the others do.
Aquarius, this time you went a little beyond. I didn't like the way you spoke to me, but I don't think I have to reply to you, even if I have lots of things I could answer back with. But this would be useless. And NOT constructive.
So, yes, you are right: it's better to get silent, sometimes. It is more constructive.
Take care, Aquarius. I don't think you and I will talk to each other anymore.

[Aquarius]

I apologize if I hurt your feelings, Asso. I feel compelled to point out, though, that I wouldn't have felt the need to say anything if it weren't for the fact that the same people are always doing the bludgeoning, and it's always on fics that have an edgy element somewhere in there. The warnings get posted, yet these individuals feel compelled to read and leave blistering commentary and redundant arguments any way, when the simple and mature thing would be to realize, "Gee, I've been warned, maybe this isn't my thing and maybe I shouldn't read it." If they do read at their own risk and they don't like what they see, they should realize that this is their own responsibility rather than making an effort to make the author's life miserable. Furthermore, these individuals continue to hammer away at he same points over and over again, as though it will change something. It isn't constructive. It isn't friendly. It isn't nice. And I completely agree with honeybee--it gets tiresome to wade through the redundant non-constructive criticism when it's the same thing over and over again.

If that makes me the bad guy for saying it, so be it.

[honeybee]

Aquarius, I propose that next month's word challenge be: threeway. And there should be a prize for the fic that gets the most outraged comments. And for good measure, a prize for the fic that gets the least.

[Aquarius]

Aquarius, I propose that next month's word challenge be: threeway. And there should be a prize for the fic that gets the most outraged comments. And for good measure, a prize for the fic that gets the least.

Don't tempt me.

[Pegmumm]

Aquarius, I propose that next month's word challenge be: threeway. And there should be a prize for the fic that gets the most outraged comments. And for good measure, a prize for the fic that gets the least.

Oh my god... don't even tempt me.
peg