"The Understanding"

[crystalswolf]

Okay, here it is. For those that have read the story, here's a thread for you to vent or bounce ideas around. Everyone here has their idea of what is acceptable or unacceptable for TnT and all I ask is that everyone respect that fact.

I will read opinions, consider ideas/issues supported with canon while rewriting chapters 2 & 3, and I'm willing to discuss everything in between. All I ask in return is that posters respect my opinions also.

This could be a lot of nothing but the comments have been a bit lengthy, passionate and seem to need more room.

[Asso]

CrystalWolf, It's difficult for me.
I should change all the ideas I have about Trip, about T'Pol.
And about Koss.

[Silverbullet]

CW, your Opinions are respected because your story is read and commented on.

All comments cannot necessairly agree with your story. I hope I am not coming across as offensive. Bt as Asso, I have definite feelings and ideas of Trip and T-Pol. I never even consider Koss because of his involvement in Home.

You certainly have sparked a lot of commentary which means that your story has hit people hard. Good for you.

SB

[crystalswolf]

Asso, I do not expect anyone to give up their ideas on TnT. I've read several stories that do not fit my personal perception of the relationship but I understand that each person sees things differently.

Silverbullet, since you mark your statements as proof of my faulty logic and not opinion, I have to address them as such.

"I've never been pregnant" can be taken two ways (that I can think of). 1-T'Pol wanted to convey in no uncertain terms that she was not pregnant or 2-they had an on-going relationship. I think it was left intentionally vague so that the writers could have wiggle room to further the relationship (if they had the opportunity). The other points on this are even less concrete. And as I said, if it's not established explicitly as canon, it's fair game! Now, I may decide in another story to use this idea that they had an on-going relationship, just not in this story.

When I first wrote this story, I originally had (in my mind) conception shortly after he revealed himself to T'Pol at the end of the book. I'm mulling it over now. Nothing's set in stone until the next chapters are written.

As for a pregnancy with Phlox's help, I believe the writers reset the issue back to ambiguous. Phlox says in E2 "According to Lorian, I discovered, or rather I will discover, a method of successfully combining human and Vulcan genomes." Then in Terra Prime "... there's no medical reason why they can't combine". This leaves the issue ambiguous because it's "they can't combine" and not "we can't combine them". It leaves it open whether they can combine naturally or artificially... and so... fair game.

Um... not sure what you mean by "she would not act the way she did in *the_abomination*."

I know my opinions have been respected... so far. That's why I welcome conversation about this openly. What I meant was what could happen here, in this thread, eventually. When I submitted this story I knew what I was getting in to. I enjoy hearing others' opinions and thoughts that may challenge mine. In the proper place and time, of course.

Phew... did I get everything?

[Asso]

Asso, I do not expect anyone to give up their ideas on TnT. I've read several stories that do not fit my personal perception of the relationship but I understand that each person sees things differently.

So, you can understand why I cannot enjoy this story.
Probably, I will await for another of the stories you are capable of writing.

[crystalswolf]

That's perfectly fine with me Asso. I understand completely.

[Silverbullet]

No medical reason that they can't combine WITH HELP. The Baby Elizabeth was created a Binary clone so her birth was helped it was not natural. Phlox said he was puzzled by the Baby. He said if T-Pol had never been Pregnant. He said that Trip would know if she ever got Pregnant. Only way he could know for sure if she had help to get Pregnant. A woman can hide a pregnancy for some time if she wants to, but eventually it would become evident. Trip would know if t-Pol ws Pregnant at some time.

As for an ongoing relationship. If T-Pol got pregnant from that one night in the Expanse she would have been Pregnant while on the Enterprise and it would become evident at some time since the ship never landed for over a year. Any Baby she would have had Trip would see and how would T-Pol get it off the Ship and how would Paxton get his hands on it? So, if she didn't get Pregnant in the Expanse and she says she has never been pregnant that does suggest an ongoing relationship because she says "Trip you think I may hace gotten Pregnant without your knowledge." Not pregnant on the ship. So she is referring to not getting Pegnant later which says that they had on ongoing intimate Relationship. But she doesn't get Pregnant. Since in e2 they are told that Lorain was conceived and carried to term with the help of Phlox. They would not feel the need to take any precautions, like birth control, because a Pregnancy they would believe is impossible.

[Silverbullet]

Double Post. I seem to have irritated CW and I appologize for that. I willl not post anything else about this story either here or in the comments Section of her story.

[crystalswolf]

I'm not irritated. Just could not understand why you would comment again for the story after this thread opened. It's frustrating when I'm limited in what I can say because I cannot (should not) describe the book. Some have not read it.

I don't mind having a discussion with you about opinions but I find it difficult when you consider implied information canon that I should hold to and I think explicit information can only be considered canon.

[Distracted]

I said in my comment on this story that I couldn't see Vulcans in 3 way marriages. I want to clarify my views. It's not just kunut-kalifee I was talking about, although being willing to kill to win a mate is part of it. It's canon that Vulcans have emotions. We know certainly that T'Pol does, and we have to assume that Koss does too. These emotions include love, jealousy, possessiveness... all of the feeings that bind a couple together and keep a marriage monogamous and stable. If two spouses don't love each other enough to be jealous of anything that threatens their relationship, that relationship, IMO, is not likely to last very long. That Vulcan males are capable of killing to win their mates is canon. They therefore must have very strong possessive drives. It makes no sense that a Vulcan male would be capable of sharing a mate.

And of course Trip has emotions, being a human male. Even if we assume T'Pol is pregnant, Trip is not available to help her raise the baby, and T'Pol chooses for some reason to change her mind about Koss and marry him (which is a large assumption, since given her past history with Koss I would think it more reasonable that she would choose to be a single parent), I submit that Trip, being a human male and in canon a person who respects traditional marriage (judging from his reaction to T'Pol's marriage to Koss in "Home"), would not choose to enter into a 3 way relationship. A normal human man is not, in my opinion, capable of sharing a woman he loves with another man.

This opinion of mine was acquired the hard way after I experienced the appalled reactions of every male who ever read my story "Charlie", in which I had Trip encouraging T'Pol to go to another man... for good reason, I thought. I was informed in no uncertain terms that Trip, even if he were DEAD and just a katra remnant in T'Pol's head, would never in a million years tell T'Pol to go sleep with another man, even if that man were giving up his life so that Trip and T'Pol could be together again. I never got a single positive reaction from any man who ever read the story. From that I have to assume that, at least among the men in my readership, men believe that it is not possible for a human man to share a woman with another man in the same way as some human women have historically been capable of sharing a man with another woman. I'm not sure if it's a cultural or biological difference, but certainly the men I know seem to all agree on that.

[Silverbullet]

Crystalwolf. Implied and direct information. I bbelieve that most on this board accept that Trip and T-Pol are in love although neither ever said so. I thhink that many also accept that Trip and T-Pol go on to marry and have a family. That is implied at the end of Terra Prime. A lot of stories are based on that implication.

Direct information the Bond. T-Pol says the bond exists. In demons Trip says he is sick of it and t-Pol says she doesn't enjoy it either. However, the Bond frst appeared when Trip was on the Columbia and T-Pol was on the Enterprise at a distance of one light year apart. One light year is approximately Six Trillion Miles that is with a "T." A Bond that could connect two minds over that distance must be very, very, very, VERY powerful. That kind of power would be difficult to lose or sever so in *the_abomination* when T-Pol suggests that it has faded, I cannot believe that. The direct iformation contradicts that.

I believe that both Implied and direct information are acceptable if plausible and logical.

[Asso]

I said in my comment on this story that I couldn't see Vulcans in 3 way marriages. I want to clarify my views. It's not just kunut-kalifee I was talking about, although being willing to kill to win a mate is part of it. It's canon that Vulcans have emotions. We know certainly that T'Pol does, and we have to assume that Koss does too. These emotions include love, jealousy, possessiveness... all of the feeings that bind a couple together and keep a marriage monogamous and stable. If two spouses don't love each other enough to be jealous of anything that threatens their relationship, that relationship, IMO, is not likely to last very long. That Vulcan males are capable of killing to win their mates is canon. They therefore must have very strong possessive drives. It makes no sense that a Vulcan male would be capable of sharing a mate.

And of course Trip has emotions, being a human male. Even if we assume T'Pol is pregnant, Trip is not available to help her raise the baby, and T'Pol chooses for some reason to change her mind about Koss and marry him (which is a large assumption, since given her past history with Koss I would think it more reasonable that she would choose to be a single parent), I submit that Trip, being a human male and in canon a person who respects traditional marriage (judging from his reaction to T'Pol's marriage to Koss in "Home"), would not choose to enter into a 3 way relationship. A normal human man is not, in my opinion, capable of sharing a woman he loves with another man.

This opinion of mine was acquired the hard way after I experienced the appalled reactions of every male who ever read my story "Charlie", in which I had Trip encouraging T'Pol to go to another man... for good reason, I thought. I was informed in no uncertain terms that Trip, even if he were DEAD and just a katra remnant in T'Pol's head, would never in a million years tell T'Pol to go sleep with another man, even if that man were giving up his life so that Trip and T'Pol could be together again. I never got a single positive reaction from any man who ever read the story. From that I have to assume that, at least among the men in my readership, men believe that it is not possible for a human man to share a woman with another man in the same way as some human women have historically been capable of sharing a man with another woman. I'm not sure if it's a cultural or biological difference, but certainly the men I know seem to all agree on that.

I don't think there can be a better way to express what you said, Dis. I assure you: as a man, I wouldn't be capable of making so perspicuous my sensations and my feelings about Cristalwolf's story.
And - do you know? - you were also capable of making me well aware of the reasons because of which I - honestly - disliked your "Charlie". Yes, I think - in the light of what you said - that I felt that story... offensive (But, obviously, you are a woman, and you weren't able, at that time, to be aware of that ).

[crystalswolf]

I said in my comment on this story that I couldn't see Vulcans in 3 way marriages. I want to clarify my views. It's not just kunut-kalifee I was talking about, although being willing to kill to win a mate is part of it. It's canon that Vulcans have emotions. We know certainly that T'Pol does, and we have to assume that Koss does too. These emotions include love, jealousy, possessiveness... all of the feeings that bind a couple together and keep a marriage monogamous and stable. If two spouses don't love each other enough to be jealous of anything that threatens their relationship, that relationship, IMO, is not likely to last very long. That Vulcan males are capable of killing to win their mates is canon. They therefore must have very strong possessive drives. It makes no sense that a Vulcan male would be capable of sharing a mate.

I completely agree with you about Vulcans and their emotions. I'm sure they feel jealousy and possessiveness just as humans do, perhaps even more. Vulcans are capable and willing to kill for their mates when motivated (pon farr or just prefer the woman had no other potential mate). But where we part in agreement is I have never seen Vulcans shy away from something because it causes an emotional response. Their answer to any situation seems to be more meditation and control can fix anything. For T'Pol it's a different story and for Trip it's a whole different story. That's why they have their own chapters.

And of course Trip has emotions, being a human male. Even if we assume T'Pol is pregnant, Trip is not available to help her raise the baby, and T'Pol chooses for some reason to change her mind about Koss and marry him (which is a large assumption, since given her past history with Koss I would think it more reasonable that she would choose to be a single parent), I submit that Trip, being a human male and in canon a person who respects traditional marriage (judging from his reaction to T'Pol's marriage to Koss in "Home"), would not choose to enter into a 3 way relationship. A normal human man is not, in my opinion, capable of sharing a woman he loves with another man.

Very true... unless he is compelled to do so because of stronger motivations. I'm taking into account that idea and the fact that Trip has been exposed to very different cultural views and hard lessons that may have softened his cultural rigidity ever so slightly. Remember "Cogenitor"? Combining all of this led me to believe that he might consider it if pushed in the right places. And I ran with that. Believe me, this is not meant to be a happily-ever-after for them. Actually, here's a note I originally attached to Chapter 2 of the story:

Although the first part ended on a happier note, when writing it I didn't envision what came before or after to be so peaceful. It was meant to be a snapshot of a happier time. Sometimes adults would rather chew glass than make certain decisions and eventually have to handle the consequences of those choices. I expected their lives to be complicated but thinking about the reasons why, I realized it was great fodder for storytelling.

This opinion of mine was acquired the hard way after I experienced the appalled reactions of every male who ever read my story "Charlie", in which I had Trip encouraging T'Pol to go to another man... for good reason, I thought. I was informed in no uncertain terms that Trip, even if he were DEAD and just a katra remnant in T'Pol's head, would never in a million years tell T'Pol to go sleep with another man, even if that man were giving up his life so that Trip and T'Pol could be together again. I never got a single positive reaction from any man who ever read the story. From that I have to assume that, at least among the men in my readership, men believe that it is not possible for a human man to share a woman with another man in the same way as some human women have historically been capable of sharing a man with another woman. I'm not sure if it's a cultural or biological difference, but certainly the men I know seem to all agree on that.

Men, as far as I've noticed, have high ideals and Trip seems to embody those ideals for many. Don't get me wrong, that's a great thing, but sometimes life force ideals out of the window along with pride.

[pdsldl]

I agree with both Distracted and SilverBullet. A Vulcan involved in a threesome seems all wrong for the stated reasons and I also agree that there was implied things about TnT but strongly enough that they are canon. Trip did say he loved T'Pol to T'Les. I do believe an on-going on again off again romantic relationship existed as supported by Trips questions as to what T'Les knew about them/him and what T'Pol would tell her when she invited him to Vulcan. . T'Les trapped Trip into admitting they were romantically involved. Also T'Pol, who previously equated taking someone home to meet the parents was tantamount to an marriage proposal, took him home with her. T'Pol had a need to let Trip know there was no honeymoon (no sex) with Koss and why would she need to tell him her study of the Kir'Shara meant no time for them if there hadn't been time spent with him before that? The bond was a fact and while there are many open questions about how it worked nut allowing for more than one mate is does not seem like a reasonable option. Vulcan mating seemed to operate on an instinctual level and there are few species of mammals that would allow another male near his mate no matter what life throws at them. They kill for much less. Trip loved T'Pol but didn't even consider being with T'Pol while she was married and her culture may have allowed for this because she was married in name only. I just don't see him giving up his morals less than picture perfect life or not. In fact to me most of his experiences would make him hold on to what he holds dear more tightly than before not less.

As far as TnT having a child Lorian existed and baby Elizabeth was cloned which meant her DNA was genetically altered and there would be no reason why Phlox or a geneticist wouldn't have been able to apply the techniques used for one or both births to TnT's DNA to assist them with a child either naturally or like Sim was created by Phlox. They could do that now so would most definitely be able to in 215?. These are not implied in canon but are what was presented as canon.

I read your first chapter and while I think you have a right to your opinion I don't see anything in canon that would allow for your scenario. I read stories that have stretched it as far as keeping within character but find it must be something that can be reasonably implied from what we saw on screen. I've liked your other stories and look forward to reading them but I won't be reading the rest of this one.

[Asso]

[quote="crystalswolf]Men, as far as I've noticed, have high ideals and Trip seems to embody those ideals for many. Don't get me wrong, that's a great thing, but sometimes life force ideals out of the window along with pride.[/quote]

Excuse me, Cristalwolf, but this is not a good reason.
Now, please listen to me. It is perfectly understandable that you intend to defend your choices and your story, and you have all the right to write what you want, but - honestly - in my opinion you should admit that if something "forced" exists, that is the scenario of your story. That doesn't mean that you cannot go on with that, NOT AT ALL! - but you shouldn't insist that it can be believable. I must say that - not infrequently . writers desire to stun: that is NOT UNFAIR, but we (I am in the pack) have to acknowledge that.
And then, I am persuaded that Distracted is absolutely right. Think of that: I am a male, Silverbullet is a man, and Transwarp is a man.
Probably that counts, I think.
But, what do you want? Men exist.