Behaving like adults

[Dinah]

We need something new to talk about. How about giving this a try? Staying within the established 97 or so episodes, what scenes would you have tweaked to allow Trip and T'Pol to build a relationship in a more adult fashion. The "morning after" scene in Harbinger is too obvious. So often people say Trip and T'Pol behaved liked adolescents. How could we improve on the existing episodes? Does anyone have any ideas?

[Silverbullet]

Good way to start is having Trip acting more Adult. He was too often made to look like a HIck or an overgown kid. Tone down that Vulcan 'I have no emotions' thing. Let T-Pol exhibit some emotions. There are two kinds of emotions the positive kind, empathy, consideration, joy, happiness, etc and the negative kind Hate, jealousy, Envy, pettiness, things like that. I can see no rao why the Vulcas hid the positive enotions as they would not harm them. but the negative ones would. So, let T-Pol exhibit positive emotios. that way she could have shown Trip that she cared for him openly (privately) Based on that I think that some changes of Episodes could be made.

The way vulcans wre depicted they seemed like lonely people because they shut out everyone even other Vulcans. You would think that after thousands of years they could shield themselves from being battered by emotions coming from others.

Interesting idea you have dinah

[honeybee]

Well, canonically speaking, Vulcans were lonely people. Going back to TOS, Spock feels great shame at how close he is to Kirk because he says his people view personal expressions of friendship to be in poor taste. I thought the fact that T'Pol was a loner and rarely expressed emotion was right on target for what an Enterprise era Vulcan should be. She was suppressing her emotions - but she had them.

And as for Trip - he was an open-minded, emotional character that was part of his charm - his boyishness. I didn't like when they made a joke out of what was an excellent character trait. So, right up front the characters were great foils for one another. I actually liked the way the friendship evolved in Season One - and was disappointed that it was backburnered in Season 2.

I think the trouble started in the Expanse - really after Harbinger - when she freaked out and chose not to talk to him. Had they been willing to communicate with each other - I think he could have realized that she was going through serious issues - and helped her.

I always wondered why he wasn't more aware that she was behaving very strangely in Azati Prime. He was hurt, but I do his character had evolved up to that point that he should have recognized that she was not right - for a Vulcan, especially. If they had started communicating like adults then - I think they would have developed a strong relationship and noticed their bond - and I think Home would have been just as interesting if they had shown up as an official couple.

But I agree with you Dinah - at that point in the show - they should have addressed what was going on between them - and with her. And him as well. He was depressed over his sister. She became a drug addict and lost control of her emotions - which caused her to act on her feelings (but did not create the feelings). But they both were highly trained professionals who had been through a lot - they should have leaned on each other.

[Dinah]

I agree that Azati Prime was a pivotal episode. I think the problem was that T'Pol knew deep down that she shouldn't be in command at this point. That tear may be have been for Archer, but I always thought that to a certain extent she was crying for being placed in an untenable position. All the responsibility for saving Earth and humanity had just been dumped in her lap. They were in hostile territory with little hope of success. I'd be crying, too, at this point. Trip, on the other hand, is trying desperately to hold things together. He's trying to prop up T'Pol, hold the crew together, and prepare for a fight. Unfortunately, he can only go so far with her. She's still his superior officer. She may be acting strangely, but not enough that he would feel justified to have her removed from command. If she won't talk to him, there's not much he can do. He tried to reason with her and it had absolutely no effect.

Just before the attack, I think the only thing in T'Pol's mind was to get Archer back. Not only because she didn't want to see him die, but also to remove the impossible burden of command from her shoulders. You can see it in her eyes at the end of the episode -- all of this is my fault, everything is lost because of me. Trip wasn't even on her radar at this point. He was the voice of duty and she just didn't want to hear what he was saying.

[honeybee]

I agree 100% with your assessment - but I do wish Trip had recognized her distress - even though the ship was in crisis - I do think he was an astute character by that point and I do think that if he had later tried to reach out - and she had accepted - that would have been behaving like adults.

It was still a strong, dramatic episode - I hated to see the character fail that way - but I do think she redeemed herself later - especially in Zero Hour.

[crystalswolf]

I agree with Honeybee that T'Pol behaved as Vulcans have been portrayed. I can understand how a society that tries to control their negative emotions would also try to control the positive emotions. Emotions sometimes bleed into one another, strong emotions would more so (love can lead to jealousy for example). If you take control of them from the very beginning, I guess the idea is that they cannot get out of control. As for being cut off, there was another thread that brought this up. If their species was so telepathically sensitive, they would have to find ways to protect themselves. I guess even if it creates somewhat of a lonely existence.

And Trip's boyishness was part of his charm, at least for me. I think Trip understood, mostly, what was going on. He just gave T'Pol space to figure it out for herself. Even in Harbinger's morning after scene, after she offended him by comparing him to a lab rat he cornered her like one by asking to continue their sessions.

I think all of this could have been resolved after Similitude. Sim gave her everything she needed wrapped in a pretty, neat bow and when Trip came back, she could have said something like she did for Sim. But Sim was going to die and she didn't have to think about facing him the morning after.

[Dinah]

I think Trip did realize that T'Pol was in some distress, but there was no time. They knew they were going to get clobbed by the Xindi, and very soon. This wasn't the time for a heart to heart talk or reason with her. It was balls to the walls -- suck it up and let's go. Trip was thinking about the crew: a bunch of scared stiff people who needed to see a strong leader step up and take charge.

I think Trip would have tried to talk to her about it after it was all over, if he'd been given the chance. Unfortunately following the attack, he had his hands full with repairs. Any personal relationships would have probably been put on hold until the emergency was over. Even then, any interaction is contingent upon T'Pol's cooperation. If she shuts him down, there's not much he can do about things.

[Silverbullet]

Never thought Sim gave her anything but his own Confusion. He said "I don't know if they are his (feelings) or mine" and she said. "I cannot answer that." Later in Harbinger that confusion came out when she said "standing right there Sim said HE had feelings for me." She did not say "sim said you have feelings for me." Yet she translates that into Trip having feelings for her.

Problem with the Episode was that the writers had the clone develope a seperate personality that of the clone (Desert Larvae) when at first the clone only had Trips personality. So, Sim didn't actually do anything for T-Pol regarding what she felt for Trip or he felt for her.

I hated the fact tht the writers Yo-Yo'd T-Pol constantly. they played that "Will they , Won't they" crap too long.

Azati Prime. Vulcans don't cry that is an emotion and they do no show emotions yet the writers have her crying over Archer. She never sowed anythhing but a professional relationship with him up to that point. How could she get that emotional. He was Captain, he chose to risk his life. As a Vulcan she would accept that as his Logic and shedding a tear would be OOC. Always hated that because the writers didn't allow her to show anything when Trip was at deaths door in Sim. She never even visited him in Sickbay even if he was in a coma. She could have at lest looked in to check on his condition and see him.

[crystalswolf]

Never thought Sim gave her anything but his own Confusion. He said "I don't know if they are his (feelings) or mine" and she said. "I cannot answer that." Later in Harbinger that confusion came out when she said "standing right there Sim said HE had feelings for me." She did not say "sim said you have feelings for me." Yet she translates that into Trip having feelings for her.

Problem with the Episode was that the writers had the clone develope a seperate personality that of the clone (Desert Larvae) when at first the clone only had Trips personality. So, Sim didn't actually do anything for T-Pol regarding what she felt for Trip or he felt for her.

I hated the fact tht the writers Yo-Yo'd T-Pol constantly. they played that "Will they , Won't they" crap too long.

Azati Prime. Vulcans don't cry that is an emotion and they do no show emotions yet the writers have her crying over Archer. She never sowed anythhing but a professional relationship with him up to that point. How could she get that emotional. He was Captain, he chose to risk his life. As a Vulcan she would accept that as his Logic and shedding a tear would be OOC. Always hated that because the writers didn't allow her to show anything when Trip was at deaths door in Sim. She never even visited him in Sickbay even if he was in a coma. She could have at lest looked in to check on his condition and see him.

Sim hinted that the feelings were shared between both men when he told her that Trip was really starting to enjoy their sessions. When she dismissed it as just helping him sleep, Sim corrected her that he didn't think it was just that which meant there was something associated with those memories coming through. This must have been really hard for Sim because he'd always had a thing for T'Pol since his teen years then having Trip's feeling on top of that, how can you sort which is which? I don't think she told Trip this because it wasn't solid evidence but enough to give her a glimpse of what might be there.

In Azati Prime, I believe she was already on her Trellium D high until they lost access to the storage area

[honeybee]

I agree Dinah, that the immediate aftermath of Azati Prime wasn't the time for a lovey-dovey heart to heart - but on the other hand, T'Pol was a senior officer and in serious mental distress. Yes, they all were unraveling, but she's a Vulcan and so there was something more significant wrong with her. Trip didn't see her cry - but he knew she wasn't behaving right. And least, I believe he would have known that something bigger than run-of-the-mill stress or grief was affecting her.

I love the Forgotten - but it was really about Trip's depression - and him resolving his grief. But perhaps then more communication could have happened between them, especially since she had quit the drugs. I would have liked to see her resolve her issues before Zero Hour (which is the episode that redeems her professionally) and more communication begin.

[Transwarp]

In Azati Prime, T'Pol is placed in a life-or-death crisis while under the influence of trellium-D. The effect of trell-D on Vulcans is to inhibit their ability to control emotions, and uncontrolled Vulcan emotions are very strong to begin with. T'Pol was taking the drug in the first place so she could get in touch with the more pleasant emotions so she could relate better to the human crew. But suddenly she's in a situation where she is being slammed by strong negative emotions such as grief and fear. As a Vulcan, she had zero experience dealing with such emotion in real-time. She tried to handle them as a Vulcan would, in private. I'm sure she realized Trip was right when he said the crew needed her, but that just added one more emotion to the mix--guilt!

The drug did NOT impair her ability to think rationally. I saw no evidence (as most people seem to feel) that her tactical or command decisions were unsound because of the trell-D. In fact, the scene right before the attack where she's about to take a shuttlepod to attempt to negotiate with the Xindi struck me as a logical and reasonable course of action. Much more sensible than the kamikaze attack the humans were advocating. After all, if her diplomacy failed, they still had the kamikaze attack has the last ditch measure.

I would like to have seen more adult behavior between the two, but I agree that Azati Prime was probably not the episode for that.

As for their bond, most people assume it formed in Harbinger when they had sex, which is certainly a possibility. I believe it developed later. I can't imagine some of the on-screen behavior taking place if the two are bonded. (Even if they're unaware of it.)

For me, the final straw in the on-again off-again writers-can't-make-up-their-damn-minds relationship between the two was the episode where Trip returns to Enterprise from Columbia and forces T'Pol to finally reveal her feelings... and then hides his. He walks away with a smirk and a cryptic comment. (I felt like throwing something at the TV, except I was watching it on a DVD in my laptop...)

At that point, I knew the writers were incapable of handling the relationship in a reasonable manner (for whatever reason). An adult Trip would have taken the opening to finally have a frank and honest discussion with her about their feelings and the future of their relationship. Oh well. We'll always have TriSilk...

[ginamr]

TRIP

He seemed to get too upset when he didn't get what he wanted...so for him, a start might be to have him accept that T'Pol's emotions confuse the shit out of her as she has been trained to supress them. Maybe have him back off a little with the whole "i'm pissed off because you won't tell me all your secrets" thing. B & B made him far too emotional and clingy.

one thing that could be fixed: maybe B & B should have shown him as the kind to put on a smile for the world even when things were tough and his breakdown in front of T'Pol over the loss of his sister would have been more powerful.

a second thing that could be fixed: don't do the typical guy thing and shut down. Reed could have given him some good advice. i think it would be more adult for him to take the jokes about his and t'pol's relationship in stride and then ask Reed's serious advice instead of getting all offended when the subject of t'pol came up, as it was bound to.

T'POL

I agree that the way her character started was right on par with the stage TOS set. However, I would have liked to see her struggle briefly with her emotions but then confront them either by asking hoshi's or phlox's advice instead of allowing herself to be controlled by them. also, I genuinely believe that if you have feelings for someone, you tell them subtely at least.

one thing that could have been fixed: have t'pol realize that she doesn't have to face this new difficulty on her own especially when she has others around her who experience those emotions everyday. yes, they're intense and yes, they're scary. but having a confidante makes things so much easier and so much less scary.

another thing that could have been fixed: don't just resort to sex to express her feelings. tell him with a touch or a look or a few simple words how she feels before she fucks him stupid. have a genuine conversation about what he means to her before she shags his brains out.

[ginamr]

Another thing though...if outside things had kept them apart...if they'd been on the verge of a real conversation and t'pol had been called to the bridge for an emergency, for example...that would be different. but the events of all episodes after Harbinger only gave them an excuse to hide their feelings.

[Linda]

I do think one thing that could help Trip and T'Pol seem more like adults is for us to write more stories about them in Trip's middle and late years. After years together and toward the end of life people tend to slow down more and evaluate their lives. We used to have more stories from their later life, or at least there were some a couple of years ago. How long would Trip live with the improved medical technology for Humans as we head into the 23rd century? Would Trip and T'Pol meet any of the TOS characters in their younger years?

[Silverbullet]

One of the problems withEnterprise was that damned Interruption. How many times was T-Pol and Trip going to have some serious talk when Archer calls T-POl. Too many. Writers have used the device to death. I hate the Interruption thing . When Trip is in her White Room the writers have him standing in Engineering. why not when he is alone in his quarters? Because they cannot have that interruption they love so much.

Linda. Re life span. when I ws Born the average life span for a male ws 62. today it is 74. so by the 23rd century it should bve at least 120. That is average. If trip is healthy he could live to be 130. What would that make T-Pol? Well when Trip is 32 (I belive) she is 65. so if he is 130 she will be nearly 166. an old lady too. He dies and she would not have that long to live either if she lives to be 200. Think they could have a long and happy marriage if they marry when he is 34 and she is 66 or 67.

Just my opinionn for what itis worth.