Weird TnT Dynamics

[Ludmila]

There are the opinions and the beliefs. It is possible and fruitful to discuss only the former. The problem is consists in the intersection of my belief and another opinion. I believe that T'Les was not the calculating egoist. I can discuss her possible thoughts about her daughter. These thoughts may be valid or not.
Attention. I agree that it is possible and maybe valid for somebody the existence of the opinion that T'Pol was the self-seeking intrigant who conceived the cunning plan to become the ambassador by the speedy way deceiving the few humans, making involved with her some human male and pretending to be the best friend of the Earth. I really think that any opinion may be valid. But the outlined opinion infringes upon my beliefs about T'Pol, her aspirations, her character and her possible reactions. I may not discuss that opinion (whether it is logical or not, whether it has a common sense or not). I can stay away that theme or express with passion my thoughts and rather my feelings in respect of that question (and later without respect of persons).
Sorry in advance to those posters whose beliefs will insult. I try in real life to find out beforehand the hot topic of my opponent because I can be a berserk if I became strong involved in my hot topic.
I now catch such topics which do not affect my Enterprise beliefs.

Firstly, I fully agree with Kotik and others that 4 season permitted with the unfeasible angst. But I am sure that if Enterprise had the perfect depiction of TnT (both as the pair and as the individual characters) I could be very happy but I would spend my time on other things (other movies, PC games, books et al). I adore the movie "Gattaka" but I was rewatching it very rarely and I never seek other lovers of this movie in internet.
I prefer to focus my attention on the positive TnT dynamics and disregards the rest. I offended somebody in this year maybe three times (and even very strongly). But I made many good deals for this person. I perceive the Enterprise (especially season 4) as some neighbour decided to tell everybody all my quarrels (TnT miscommunication and discord) and to mention only few good deals casually.

How did Koss or even T'Les know that T'Pol was coming home? One can guess that T'Pol told her mother by subspace transmission, but Koss could only know from T'Les. Her mother obviously was conspiring with Koss.

That was not the Human Flag ship they travelled to Vulcan on. the flagship0 was Enterprise and it was in dock. I believe they travellled on a vulcan Ship so that rules out how Koss would guess that T-Pol would be visiiting Mother.

I may find out all info about the train trips or flights of some person from my city in 2005 for example. There are many people which are the strangers for me but they may find out all my trips have been registered in any databases in this year, month.
Kos has a powerful father and he may have his friends in Vulcan customs office, the border services, the carrier company et al. Seeking T'Pol in her mother house is a logical step after that.

b) T'Pol had made it clear that she did not want to marry Koss. It may be tradition to do arranged marriages, but traditions are not LAW. So enforcing tradition against another beings will by threatening is blackmail. T'Les' logic should have told her that. Since I have been exposed to violence and blackmail by my own mother I react very badly to that.

I agree in this question with WarpGirl. T'Les may comprehend the feelings of her daughter but thinking that this marriage is beneficial for her. And it is not betrayal or evil. I have the constant arguments with my mother (and many other peoples) thinking that my lifestyle is not proper, my goals are not right. Maybe it is. But my opinion about the place of the family and the friends in my life proves its value so far. My friends are more helpful than many relatives which often are of new troubles not of use. T'Pol is not well informed about the position of her mother. T'Les does not have to tell all about her life, especially, when this talk can give her daughter a chance to refrain from such marriage.

c) Koss did gain nothing by that marriage. He had the ceremony and T'Pol left a contrail right afterwards. The whole marriage had illogic written all over it. They enforce the tradition of the arranged marriage, but foreswear the tradition of living a year together? Logic my ass.

I do not have my opinion about Kos. I have read many stories (fanfics, of course) about him with the romantic Kos, the evil Kos, Kos as the sacrifice of the circumstances, his despotic father and many other interesting ideas. And all of them are plausible for me.
I am very sad about that unfeasible twist in "Home" which is repulsive for me but I love this episode which had the beautiful views and the nice TnT moments in the beginning, introduced T'Les, showed Kos and nspired many fanfics authors.

[honeybee]

I think T'Les probably told Koss that T'Pol was coming home. But it's also plausible that T'Pol's arrival would have been mentioned in the media. The Xindi Conflict was a big enough deal that it was probably covered on Vulcan. So, Koss could have found out that way, or as Ludmilla says, through family connections or transport manifests.

[Transwarp]

I have been following these discussions with a great deal of interest, and I noticed something very strange. I was agreeing with EVERYBODY. And the reason is because everybody was supporting their positions with facts from the episode, and filling in the holes with plausible suppositions that supported their own viewpoint. So, one can make a strong case for a good T'Les, or an evil T'Les, depending on how the facts are spun. A Kind-but-misguided Koss, or a despicable-louse Koss? Both are possible within the framework of the series.

I have read some very good fanfics, with wildly differing interpretations of these events, without any problem whatsoever. As long as the author takes the necessary care to provide a plausible background to support the plot and characters, I'm okay with it.

That doesn't mean I don't have my own theory, just that I'll accept others (as long as they're supported by reasonable assumptions.)

For the record, my own theory tracks pretty close to Honeybee's and Warpgirl's, with a little escriba thrown in for good measure. I see Trip letting T'Pol go to be a noble act on his part. I see T'Pol's sacrifice for her mother as an honorable act on her part. I think Koss was pressured into the marriage by his parents. Left to his own devices, I think he would have just walked away. (I don't see him as evil.) T'Les started out thinking the marriage would be good for T'Pol, but started to have a tiny seed of doubt after getting to know Trip better. That's how it all appears from my little corner of the universe, anyway.

[Escriba]

I like the episode for that too, because (almost) any interpretation fits.

And for the record, I think that the people who believe T'Les is evil and Koss a bas-- a very bad person, are perfectly legitimate to believe so and their opinion is as worthy as anybody else's (and of course, mine.) I just like best when nobody is the evil one. That's all, I find it more interesting. But that's only my opinion.

[Aquarius]

I think had the wedding not been pushed through so fast, and T'Les had had more time to observe the relationship between Trip and T'Pol, she may well have changed her mind about pushing the wedding. She seems to regret it later.

Absolutely, because T'Les suggests that Trip should tell T'Pol how he feels. And then Trip sacrifices his desires in order to not complicate things further for T'Pol--he gets it, even if he doesn't agree with what she's doing--and you can just about see the switch flip in T'Les's head when she realizes that hey, this smelly human with the great shoulders would actually make pretty good son-in-law material, probably even better than that meathead her daughter is about to marry. One might even suppose that T'Les is willing, at that point, to face permanent unemployment to see her daughter in a good situation, rather than make her go through with this travesty of a wedding in order to save her job.

[Kotik]

I think had the wedding not been pushed through so fast, and T'Les had had more time to observe the relationship between Trip and T'Pol, she may well have changed her mind about pushing the wedding. She seems to regret it later.

Absolutely, because T'Les suggests that Trip should tell T'Pol how he feels. And then Trip sacrifices his desires in order to not complicate things further for T'Pol--he gets it, even if he doesn't agree with what she's doing--and you can just about see the switch flip in T'Les's head when she realizes that hey, this smelly human with the great shoulders would actually make pretty good son-in-law material, probably even better than that meathead her daughter is about to marry. One might even suppose that T'Les is willing, at that point, to face permanent unemployment to see her daughter in a good situation, rather than make her go through with this travesty of a wedding in order to save her job.

Since T'Les is touching Trip, when she helps with the robe, she's probably picking up his emotions, Vulcans being touch-telepaths and all. Her face gives it away that she has a massive 'oh my gosh'-moment.

[Aquarius]

^very true.

[honeybee]

It's very ironic and frustrating that Trip wins over T'Les by giving up T'Pol.

Since I still maintain that it would have been better to have TnT together through the 4th season - you could have had the whole episode, and then T'Les recognize (through some kind of Vulcan mojo/touch telepathy) that TnT have bonded and stop the wedding.

Then, we could have had TnT spend the entire season - albeit in the background - dealing with the consequences that they've accidently married each other. Assuming you accept the new book's conceit that in the Syrranite tradition - the bond is the marriage.

[Linda]

That would have been interesting, honeybee, and more satisfying than the following episodes showing them pulling apart. I'd like to even have seen some comic cultural misunderstandings a la Lucy and Ricky Ricardo style.

[Asso]

That would have been interesting, honeybee, and more satisfying than the following episodes showing them pulling apart. I'd like to even have seen some comic cultural misunderstandings a la Lucy and Ricky Ricardo style.

Oh yes! That would have been great!

[Asso]

I just like best when nobody is the evil one. That's all, I find it more interesting. But that's only my opinion.

I love when there's an evil one. I'm enamoured of the battle between Evil and Good. I love when the adder is borne down. Crushed. Annihilated. Spurting its blood all around. Unbinding and losing its black soul in the mud.

[Aquarius]

I just like best when nobody is the evil one. That's all, I find it more interesting. But that's only my opinion.

I love when there's an evil one. I'm enamoured of the battle between Evil and Good. I love when the adder is borne down. Crushed. Annihilated. Spurting its blood all around. Unbinding and losing its black soul in the mud.

Generally I feel that "good" and "evil" are kind of simplistic for dramatic purposes. I'd rather see what happens when reasonable people (be they human or Vulcan) do unreasonable things because of unreasonable circumstances.

[Asso]

They exist, Aquarius.

[Aquarius]

They exist...and in a one-hour television drama, they often come off as one-dimensional if they're presented as merely "good" or "evil" without any real motivation behind either. No one is 100% one or the other.

[WarpGirl]

I guess my big thing about this whole discussion is that putting an "evil" sign on arranged marriages, and a culture that values something other than individual happiness gauls me. Self-sacrifice is an important concept. Taking care of your family is an important concept. And I see no evidence whatsoever that either T'Les or Koss ever wanted to harm T'Pol physically or mentally. You want to say it was a bad situation go ahead I agree. But to put words like prostituting T'Pol in there yeah I get upset.

There are still cultures in the world where family comes before self and arranged marriages are practiced. To say that it is evil isn't fair or right, right is a judgement not many people can make. It isn't the western way, no. But whose to say it is wrong.