Weird TnT Dynamics

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Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Kotik » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:28 pm

Hi there,

As regular ff.net visitors might know, I'm in the midst of writing a missing scenes collection for season 2 with plans of doing the same for seasons 3 and 4 directly leading to the events of "Trip Of A Lifetime". Since I've tried to build up a general timeline ahead I've been doing a rough analysis of the on-screen dynamics between Trip and T'Pol and the more one looks at it, the less sense it all makes :

Season 1

Both characters go into season one with bad preconceptions about each others species. In true Surak style they challenged their preconceptions - most notably in "Breaking The Ice". In my perception it was mainly Trip, who was the driving force behind this. Vulcans were rather high on his shit list when he came aboard, but he kept openminded enough to get through that inpenetrable wall that T'Pol had built around herself. For me a key moment was, when Trip was hurled into the shuttle in "Desert Crossing". The way T'Pol raced to his side and cared for him immediately was a sure sign that at this point Trip was more than a mere crew mate for her.

Season 2

In season 2, I think the roles were reversed. They were reasonably comfortable with each other and T'Pol became actually more active and obvious in showing that she was interested in Trip. The almost obvious flirting during "Carbon Creek", her stying with Trip, when Archer runs out of the rec room on the automatic repair station in "Dead Stop" are only some of those little moment. Season 2 is a bit hard on the average shipper, because the writers wasted so many episodes for contriving a romance between Archer and T'Pol, something that would never work. Those small exchanges of looks between TnT had more sparks flying than the contrived Archer/T'Pol worship scenes that sometimes hogged half an episode. I think mid-season 2 is where the writers really dropped the ball, both in overall quality, but also in the TnT dynamics.

Season 3

Out of leaft field suddenly comes neuropressure. For a species that considers an individuals age an intimate detail and holding hands a too intimate gesture to be performed in public, fondling each half naked must be short of X-rated, yet they obviously are close and comfortable enough that T'Pol agrees to it without as much as thinking about it for a mere 10 seconds. Unfortunately the development happened completely off-screen in S2, well more fodder for authors of missing scenes.
Now that's when the killer B's started a slow but relentless character assasination of T'Pol. While being all Vulcan, T'Pol seems very content with the growing intimacy of their relationship. Key scene for me is, when Trip starts worrying about gossip, which T'Pol answeres pretty much like 'is it their business, what we're doing in here?'. Note, she doesn't call for more discretion of flat-out denying any insinuations. She just doesn't care.
Enter from left field - Trellium-D. Many people tend to liken her Trellium-ingestion to mind altering drugs consume, which I think is wrong. Trellium-D only inhibits the Vulcan control over their emotions and that said control is not a natural instinct, it is a trained instinct, maybe like a Pavlovian reflex. So what T'Pol did was dampening that reflex, she was by no means 'stoned'. In fact the Trellium allowed her to experience raging jealousy without the reflex of automatically repressing it kicks in. Her decision to jump Trip's bones in "Harbinger" was actually quite a logical - typically Vulcan - decision:

Cause: There's competition to the male I desire (and Trellium hammers the point home by letting her feel jealousy)
Action: Demonstrate my own superiority over the competition and claim the mate by going for the mating.

That's when all went wrong. It is often said that T'Pol got frightened of the Emotions that Trip stirs in her. Why? Yes, Vulcans experience their emotions much stronger than we puny humans. But aren't affection, desire, love supposed to be positive emotions? How can I be afraid of something positive. It would have been more realistic to have her being scared by her jealousy, because that's a negative emotion if I ever saw one.
As I interpret it, 'the next morning' in Harbinger was, when the writer abandoned the idea of making a relationship between the two actually work, because except for that one scene, where T'Pol reveals her age and those where T'Pol get Trip to finally mourn for Lizzy, most scenes between them were purely meant to generate angst. And I have yet to find a single reason, why someone would like angst - it exceeds my comprehension.

Season 4

Say after me please: Contrived Angst. That's what season 4 was all about on the TnT front. Let's break it down Step by step:

"Home"
T'Pol takes him with her to Vulcan to meet T'Mom. But Mom wants her job back, so she wrecks T'Child's life and sells her off to some guy she never met and doesn't want ("Breaking The Ice"). T'Pol goes along, making Trip suffer. Seriously, if my mother would do something like that to me - I would be an orphan now, but one married to the partner I want. T'Pol is 65, her mother willingly risked to throw her into a life of possibly 140 years with a mate she didn't desire. How cruel can it get?

"Augment Arc"
Both suffer like dogs, all that only for the angst value, where's my barf bag. There should have been a more mature way to deal with it. I recommend the "Reconnecting Series" on HoT for how to do it.

"Vulcan Arc"
After selling off her own daughter T'Les gets her job back for a full few weeks, before running off into underground. Seriously, WTF?? Why were the reasons never explained, why was their no explanation for the sudden release from marriage. It was all way too contrived and the only reason was to get TnT shipper's hopes back up, so they could be thoroughly thrashed in the next episode.

"Deadalus"
I couldn't eat as much as I wanted to puke during that one. Trip offers to help, much as T'Pol had helped with his grief for Lizzy and gets an ice-cold "f*ck off" for his troubles. What is it? Did T'Les mind-meld with T'Pol in her dying moments to transfer her own cruelty to her daughter ? :vulcan:

"Observer Effect"
See Vulcan arc. Rebuilding shipper hopes for thorough thrashing in next episode.

Romulan Arc
Trip acts like a love-sick Teenager while T'Pol keeps shutting him down. With all the trust they've built over seasons 1-3. Vulcan logic is not cruelty. She loves him and he loves her, so why do they hurt each other constantly. Again, pure angst value and I'm at a loss, where the appeal in that is. Finally Trip runs off and turns bitter - yep, now that's a mature reaction if I ever saw one.

Klingon Augment Arc
First hints at the bond. And what do they do. First meeting in the white space and they try go get each other to leave. Sorry, by now it all appears just stupid to me. As good a writer Manny Coto is, but the way he handled TnT merrits a public beheading. Once Trip returns, T'Pol starts acting like the love-sick teen for a change, but of course talking to him straight forward is not an option, probably something that Surak forgot to scribble down in the Kir'Shara.

"Bound"
Finally the bond is revealed and we even get to see the Kiss. Both acknowledge their feeling as good as you can without really saying it (ending scene). But it was still vague enough to be destroyed later on.

Terra Prime Arc
The Bond is barely mentioned here. Trip is annoyed about it and T'Pol uses it to read his mind (his doubts) - that's it. If they are bound, shouldn't Trip know that she's honest about the child, so where do those idiotic doubts come from? He doesn't believe his own mate, but he DOES believe Phlox. That's just pathetic.
As nice and touching the final scene was. Did someone notice that they still not said a word that they want to spend their lives together. Between taking a roll in the hay in "Harbinger" and the end of the series, there was as much as two kisses (Home, Bound) but a helluva lot deliberate hurting each other.

So, after having that little rant out of the way, there's two question I'd like to ask:

1. Is there anybody out there who actually saw any redeeming value in the truckloads of angst all over season 4? Maybe I'm just to dense to see the appeal, I'd really like to know, what that was all about.

2. I'm having a heard time to imagine that I can really construct a coherent and believable missing scenes plot line from season 2 to the end of season 4. Does someone have general ideas on how to do that? I think Harbinger is the pivotal point. That's when the writers abandoned the idea of a serious relationship. How does one go about keeping it believable all the way to "Terra Prime" ?

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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby honeybee » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:07 pm

Redeeming Value?

The episode Home is problematic for a number of reasons, but I also find redeeming value in it.

The episode makes no sense to me unless TnT have some how gotten back together romantically (whether it's physical or not) sometime after the events of E2. Perhaps around the "intimate information" conversation. Because they don't seem like friends who had a one night stand, they seem like a couple in the early stages of a romantic relationship and are keeping it from her "conservative" mother during the visit. If they are just friends (even in their minds) , the whole vibe just doesn't make sense - especially Trip's conversation with T'Les in which she accuses them of being romantically involved and he not only doesn't deny it but is surprised that T'Pol "told" her. This would indicate they had a conversation about what they were going to tell T'Les and that conversation was predicated on the idea that they were a couple of some kind. T'Pol also knows, going back to Unexpected, that bringing someone home to meet your mother has a lot of meaning. I doubt she would have been so dim or insensitive to Trip as to invite him to Vulcan if they weren't romantically involved, though I do think its very early in their relationship.

However, the fact that Trip is very reluctant to interfere with her culture shows growth in his character. He seems to have learned a lot from the events of Cogenitor and The Expanse. I think first season or early second season Trip would have perhaps declared his feelings and tried to stop the wedding. But he sees the bigger picture AND he doesn't want to cause T'Pol more pain or angst. They don't know they've bonded - something I STILL find implausible - so Trip decides that the best thing to do is respect her culture, her decision and let her go. I think that this probably touches T'Pol in a big way - the kiss on the cheek and all. It's almost as though by respecting her and letting her go, Trip earns T'Pol's respect and helps her recognize that he is worthy of her.

But I do hate the whole contrived angst separation. We all know Manny Coto wanted to have them paired up in the 5th season - and we missed a lot of opportunities to see an inter-species couple trying to make it in world that wasn't ready for them. Which would have been original.
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Transwarp » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:14 pm

Kotik,
A fascinating analysis, and spot-on. It definitely strikes a nerve with me. In fact, it is the reason I am here at TriSilk. I had never before seen characters that I actually cared about being so completely mistreated and mischaracterized the way Trip and T'Pol were. I needed a place where the damage to my delicate psyche could be repaired, so I came HERE. Below is an excerpt my first forum post on this site (after writing my first story). It does a pretty good job of explaining how I feel about the whole thing:

I wrote this story as therapy. Yes, therapy. I am new to the Enterprise series; I never saw it when it was first out. Last month, a friend loaned me the season one DVDs and I was hooked. I viewed all four seasons in four weeks. But I was also emotionally scarred by the bone-headed and incompetent manner in which the Trip and T'Pol relationship was handled (rather, mis-handled).

I'm an engineer, but I can suspend my disbelief at all the pseudo-science, techno-babble and hand-wavium that populates the Star Trek universe, and still manage to enjoy the stories. However, I can NOT suspend disbelief at the irrational, illogical, and completely unbelievable way the Trip and T'Pol characters were portrayed. For me, the final straw was the scene in season four when T'Pol begs Trip to return to Enterprise, complete with a desperately passionate kiss, and Trip just smirks at her. Puh-LEASE. This is the same Trip who transferred from Enterprise in the first place because he couldn't get her out of his mind? It's like the writers of each episode had no idea what happened in the previous episodes. Or worse, like they didn't care.

Anyway, I'm a sucker for these star-crossed lover scenarios, but the way Trip and T'Pol were handled on the show left me with a severe case of Trellium-D poisoning.

Then I discovered this site, and I learned that there was hope for Trip and T'Pol after all. The healing began. I wrote my story, and the healing continues. I can now take short trips from my darkened bedroom, and the voices only talk to me at night. I have canceled the mafia contract I put out on Berman and Braga, and next week I might cancel the Fatwah calling for their martyrdom, if I continue to show progress.

Thank you, all, for the therapy. I'm feeling MUCH better.


So, good luck with reconciling all idiocies and contradictions in the series into your missing scenes. I'm not sure it can be done, but if you manage to pull it off, it will be like balm for the soul of troubled TnT-ers everywhere. A true public service!

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They don't know they've bonded - something I find implausible

Honeybee, maybe they didn't know they were bonded in 'Home', because at that point they weren't. Most people assume the bond formed when they had sex in 'Harbinger', but that is an assumption. In my universe, the bond forms at the moment of her ceremony with Koss. (Poetic justice, if you ask me.)
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby honeybee » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:21 pm

Honeybee, maybe they didn't know they were bonded in 'Home', because at that point they weren't. Most people assume the bond formed when they had sex in 'Harbinger', but that is an assumption. In my universe, the bond forms at the moment of her ceremony with Koss. (Poetic justice, if you ask me.)


I always thought the bond started to form during the neural pressure (as Kotik says above, you won't hold hands with someone but you'll massage them half-naked? Uh huh) and then got solidified in Harbinger.

However, given my analysis of Home above, you're position has merit. It would be ironic. Assuming a Syrannite marriage is the bond (as is portrayed in the new RW book) - that the bond formed with the "wrong" groom (or perhaps more accurately the "right" groom) during the wedding because T'Pol realized that the attraction and friendship she had with Trip was real love and that he was a worthy mate for her.
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Escriba » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:21 pm

Kotik wrote:"Home"
T'Pol takes him with her to Vulcan to meet T'Mom. But Mom wants her job back, so she wrecks T'Child's life and sells her off to some guy she never met and doesn't want ("Breaking The Ice"). T'Pol goes along, making Trip suffer. Seriously, if my mother would do something like that to me - I would be an orphan now, but one married to the partner I want. T'Pol is 65, her mother willingly risked to throw her into a life of possibly 140 years with a mate she didn't desire. How cruel can it get?

OK, I know this is quite difficult to grasp but... Vulcans AREN'T Humans. Yes, I know they look like us, but they aren't one of us. For T'Pol's mother what she does isn't cruel: she's saving her daughter's future. And Koss is the best option for her at the moment (until she realizes Trip is in love with T'Pol and is probably reciprocated.) Remember, Koss was T'Pol's fiancé. He was. He was chosen in her childhood because he was the best suited boyfriend for her. And you can say, as Trip said, people change. Well, Vulcans don't. They are the Elvens of the Trek universe, boys. They don't change, why would they? Actually, T'Pol changing of opinion is seen, from the Vulcan point of view, as her fault and nobody else's.

Kotik wrote:"Deadalus"
I couldn't eat as much as I wanted to puke during that one. Trip offers to help, much as T'Pol had helped with his grief for Lizzy and gets an ice-cold "f*ck off" for his troubles. What is it? Did T'Les mind-meld with T'Pol in her dying moments to transfer her own cruelty to her daughter ? :vulcan:

At first, T'Pol does what she ALWAYS do: she retreats. The woman has real passive-agressive issues. Actually, I think the episode is an improvement from her usual behavior. Yes, she sends him to hell in the beginning, but later, she tries to explain herself. Admit it, how many times does T'Pol explain why she does things? She tries to do it softly, also. I almost applauded when I saw her acting somehow like a grown woman.

Kotik wrote:Romulan Arc
Trip acts like a love-sick Teenager while T'Pol keeps shutting him down. With all the trust they've built over seasons 1-3. Vulcan logic is not cruelty. She loves him and he loves her, so why do they hurt each other constantly. Again, pure angst value and I'm at a loss, where the appeal in that is. Finally Trip runs off and turns bitter - yep, now that's a mature reaction if I ever saw one.

Yeah, of course, because she trying to be professional and focused when he actually isn't, is obviously impossible, isn't it? :roll: She talks to him about his feelings and he denies them. T'Pol isn't a psychic (no, really, she isn't :D) How is she going to know what she must do when he says he's been professional and when she is he gets pissed?

Kotik wrote:So, after having that little rant out of the way, there's two question I'd like to ask:

1. Is there anybody out there who actually saw any redeeming value in the truckloads of angst all over season 4? Maybe I'm just to dense to see the appeal, I'd really like to know, what that was all about.

I like Season 4. You are too dense :raspberry: Naaahh... It's a joke. I can bear the angst. Compared to other shows like "Buffy", ENT is actually a pic-nic.

Kotik wrote:2. I'm having a heard time to imagine that I can really construct a coherent and believable missing scenes plot line from season 2 to the end of season 4. Does someone have general ideas on how to do that? I think Harbinger is the pivotal point. That's when the writers abandoned the idea of a serious relationship. How does one go about keeping it believable all the way to "Terra Prime" ?

Oh, that's easy. Trip has serious intimacy and selfesteem issues and T'Pol is the Empress of Passive-Agressive kingdom. In other words: Trip never makes a move first and T'Pol needs a catastrophe of galactic proportions to give her heart to anybody. That's how I write them, at least :lol:
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby honeybee » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:26 pm

OK, I know this is quite difficult to grasp but... Vulcans AREN'T Humans. Yes, I know they look like us, but they aren't one of us. For T'Pol's mother what she does isn't cruel: she's saving her daughter's future. And Koss is the best option for her at the moment (until she realizes Trip is in love with T'Pol and is probably reciprocated.)


Another good thing about Home. T'Les isn't a cartoon. She eventually realizes that what Trip and T'Pol have may not be a fling, and it may be real love. I also think Trip's determination to let T'Pol go and do what her culture demands of her helps win T'Les over. She realizes too late that she's pushed her daughter into something that isn't right for her, even though it is logically the right thing to do.
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Alelou » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:30 pm

Kotik, I find myself in a peculiar position with this series, so I'm going to just absent myself from the discussion. Frankly I'm not even going to read your series until I'm done with my version, whenever that may be. I started to read yours on ff.net, but I've had to back off. Even though I'll probably have a very different take on it than you do, it makes me reluctant to do my own if I've read yours first ... and I still want to do it someday.

I'm impressed, though, that you're planning so far ahead. I never thought beyond the next episode (except to wish that I could get to my favorite ones sooner).
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Kotik » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:36 pm

Alelou wrote:I'm impressed, though, that you're planning so far ahead. I never thought beyond the next episode (except to wish that I could get to my favorite ones sooner).


Well what can I say, I'm German, we just love to have everything nicely planned and structured :lol:

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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:52 pm

Oh Dearie, <sigh> whatever can I say... Well a lot... But before I do I have to make a few things clear...

1. I hate T'Pol's reasoning for Trellium, if they had given me a different reason I could have bought it. But the "I wanna feel like the humans feel" is a cheap and dirty storytelling crutch.

2. For Home I gotta quote something honeybee said,
The episode makes no sense to me unless TnT have some how gotten back together romantically (whether it's physical or not) sometime after the events of E2. Perhaps around the "intimate information" conversation. Because they don't seem like friends who had a one night stand, they seem like a couple in the early stages of a romantic relationship and are keeping it from her "conservative" mother during the visit. If they are just friends (even in their minds) , the whole vibe just doesn't make sense - especially Trip's conversation with T'Les in which she accuses them of being romantically involved and he not only doesn't deny it but is surprised that T'Pol "told" her. This would indicate they had a conversation about what they were going to tell T'Les and that conversation was predicated on the idea that they were a couple of some kind. T'Pol also knows, going back to Unexpected, that bringing someone home to meet your mother has a lot of meaning. I doubt she would have been so dim or insensitive to Trip as to invite him to Vulcan if they weren't romantically involved, though I do think its very early in their relationship.


Me personally, I think they were involved but not having sex. Precautionary measure who wants T'Pol freaking out because of overload again! But what is with the mom hate? Seriously Dearie, a GOOD parent does not just accept their son or daughter coming home with some stranger (particularly of a spieces that is unpredictible) and open arms and say welcome to the family. It does not happen. If you had a daughter and she did that you'd probably be out for blood! That and as Escriba said THEY ARE NOT HUMAN!

3. I adore you but most men and some women too to be fair, miss the whole point of "Deadalus" she WAS NOT BEING CRUEL! She was in a cultural and personal tailspin and she did not need being confused about Trip to make things worse. Please she gets married, her planet goes through upheaval, get's cured of the disease the writers forgot she had, mom dies, gets divorced. The woman need TIME! All she asked for was time. If you think that was bitchy then I feel bad for you.

4. The rest, well they're actually teenagers in grown up bodies.
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Silverbullet » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:41 pm

I thought all through Home that Mom was lying in her teeth.

1. How did Koss know that T-Pol was returning to Vulcan as there was a letter from him waiting for T-Pol when she arrived. Doubt if T-Pol told Koss that she was coming home to see Mom. so, Mother had to tell him which means Mother was in cahoots with Koss. It was set up from the beginning.

2, Mom doesn't look at T-Pol when talking to her. She is obviouslly lying by the look on her face.

3,=. Mom bathmouths a relationship between T-Pol and Trip suggesting if they have Kids they woul dbe treated as half brees.

4. Mom suggests that it is T-Pol's fault that she lost her job because of the incident at the monestary.

5. Mom lays it on Trip to stop the marriage. Mom should and could have stopped it before it got started. But whe she told trip to it was far too late as T-Pol was at the place the ceremony was going ot take place nad Koss was ready. No stoping it then unless T-Pol decarfed a Death match which she would not do.

always thought the kiss ws the booby prize for Trip
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Kotik » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:49 pm

T'Les could have been a fine character, but the guilt trip she sent HER OWN DAUGHTER on was too much and in the end she prostituted her own offspring despite knowing that T'Pol loved Trip and vice-versa. She could as well have been an Orion slave trader...

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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Asso » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:56 pm

Kotik wrote:T'Les could have been a fine character, but the guilt trip she sent HER OWN DAUGHTER on was too much and in the end she prostituted her own offspring despite knowing that T'Pol loved Trip and vice-versa. She could as well have been an Orion slave trader...

True.
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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:58 pm

No offence but I find that intolerent. As to how Koss knew T'Pol was on Vulcan, well his dad was on the VHC as a Minister so it's likely he knew the Human's flagship was going to be at Vulcan. And he could easily have asked T'Les if T'Pol was going to stay a while. Why not? The families are well aquainted, possibly the human equivilant of friends.

There are other reasons not to look at someone when speaking other than lying. Being upset, worried, not knowing what the heck is going on with your daughter. Trust me when you are either a daughter or a mother you'll get it. I'm not saying she didn't lie, but we were never told she did!

T'Les' concern about how TnT would be accepted is VALID given that humans are violent as a rule, and Vulcan is being corrupted into revolution. It had no personal malice aganst Trip or Humans.

It was the reason the VHC gave T'Les when she lost her job. T'Les told the VHC's lie. She never said SHE believed it. At least not the transcript I read.

It's not T'Les' right to stop the marraige according to Vulcan law. If people would remember this society has different laws from humans they might understand that.

That kiss was beautiful.

NO SHE DID NOT PROSTITUTE T'POL! T'Pol could have called Kali'fee or gotten off planet. She didn't it was her choice. And Trip's too! Dearie I gotta go on that one that ticks me off.

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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby Asso » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:02 pm

WarpGirl wrote:That kiss was beautiful.

True. A little Human, I think.

WarpGirl wrote:NO SHE DID NOT PROSTITUTE T'POL! T'Pol could have called Kali'fee or gotten off planet. She didn't it was her choice. And Trip's too! Dearie I gotta go on that one that ticks me off.

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Re: Weird TnT Dynamics

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:07 pm

Okay that's my signal to run far far away from this topic FAST!
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
Fics
May We Together Become Greater Than The Sum Of Us
*Rights,* Wrongs, and Choices


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