Status and Support

[Alelou]

I think Amazon is clever to realize there's money in this. If Rigil Kent came out with a new full-length TnT fic, I'd be willing to spend $1.99 on it. He won't get rich off one -- the Pocketbooks authors don't either, by the way -- they don't even earn regular mass market paperback royalties -- but he'll get something out of it (even if only some cred for selling his own books at a higher profit). Of course Enterprise is such a tiny slice of the market and Paramount is so wrapped up in their licenses, they'd probably never get to ST or us.

In general, as you might guess, I like the idea of authors getting paid, and authors finding new ways of getting paid for their work. Reviews just don't cut it when you have to pay the mortgage.

[Jamieson]

After thinking on it a bit more objectively, I'm more comfortable with this particular endeavour now (I had a *long* work-related drive by myself in the wee hours of this morning...).

My main problem was that I was putting this endeavour in the same barrel as the new "pulling fanfic to publish" trend, where the story already exists as fanfiction and the author then decides to try to make money off it. I see that particular scenario as an ethical deception, because the fanfic was put out in the public with the understanding that money would not be made from the work - in fact, many people state that outright in their disclaimer, and some sites like FF.net have it right in their TOS that this is what you agree to when you post there. I've also seen it happen where authors state from the beginning that they "will never do this," in obvious response to this growing trend, but then a few months later they do it anyway...and often, it's right near the end, and the only way to read the last couple chapters of a story you were following with the understanding that it was not-for-profit fanfiction is to buy a book that - at most - had maybe a few names or places changed in it (and apparently some aren't even doing that anymore). I guess I just don't like being a "guinea pig", which is how it's started to feel in some corners.

Now that I've looked into it a bit more, I can definitely agree that this Amazon Worlds thing is not the same, especially if what authors are submitting are new works. It is acknowledged openly as fanfiction (and so no deception), licenses and royalties are upheld, and it pretty much puts it on par with tie-in adaptations, which I'm all for...and having it screened and approved definitely helps in the overall "acceptance" of the piece into the canon universe, even if it isn't quite canon itself.

So yeah, I'm actually gonna surprise myself and say that I don't really have much a problem with it at all, now that I've managed to separate the two situations in my head...which might just make a few of my friends' heads spin themselves, since it's been no secret to them that I am quite opposed to the pulling of fanfic (that which has already been posted publicly as such) to publish.

I'm still not sure if it'll take off or how it might evolve, though. A lot will be dependent on what "Worlds" will be included, how long it takes to get the stamp of approval (if at all), and I'm sure the standards and quality will vary a fair bit between shows/books. Should be interesting to see what will happen.

[Transwarp]

Generally speaking, I don't have a problem with this, but I don't actually see it taking off. As Jamieson mentioned (a buck for 5,000 words), it could be rather over-priced especially given that fanfiction.net is just around the corner with similar content at no charge. I would expect the overall quality of the Amazon works to be marginally better, but that would still mean I'd have to buy 2 or 3 stories for every one I considered worth the price, thereby doubling or tripling the price I paid.

Don't think so.

[putaro]

I was slogging through Amazon's monstrous list of sci-fi for Kindle and the amount of crap to be slogged through is growing as is the price.

I was thinking about having a service, instead, that's all you can eat and fairly cheap, like $5 or $10 per month. Your subscription would get divvied up amongst the authors that you read. It would have to be original fiction for copyright purposes. Curated collections would be a big plus. I'm thinking delivery via iPhone/iPad apps.

Any thoughts? Would you be willing to pay for this as a reader? Would you be interested in publishing on this as a writer?

[Alelou]

Curated probably will be the way to go soon.

I bet you could enlist some authors in that model, if Amazon doesn't come up with its own version sooner. I don't write science fiction outside of fanfic at this point, so I wouldn't be a great candidate.

There is one SF novel I've had in mind to write for only about 35 years. If the regular fic doesn't sell, or even if it does, maybe I'll give it a try, probably under Alelou instead of my real name.

[Jamieson]

I think that's a neat idea, Putaro. I know I'd be interested in checking out something like that, especially if the collection has some minimal quality control requirements. Even if the writing is fine but the story is not to your liking, there is an appeal in not having wasted money on a book you wanted to throw against the wall in annoyance, because you can simply go find something else at no extra cost (well...as long as you didn't waste most of the month on said annoying book before giving up). I have a group of friends who would likely be interesed in something like this, especially for that price as some of them read several books a week; unfortunately many of them aren't big on scifi (wasn't clear on whether this would be a genre-specific thing or not), but if there's interest in one corner, I'm sure there would be in another. I could see something like this being a haven for short stories, too.

The big question I'd have in this type of system is whether there would be a long start-up time (ie. getting enough stories in place to launch with much success), and whether the growth of the collection would continue at a pace that would keep a reader coming back month after month. It could take a long time to develop to a point where it might really take off.

[putaro]

The big question I'd have in this type of system is whether there would be a long start-up time (ie. getting enough stories in place to launch with much success), and whether the growth of the collection would continue at a pace that would keep a reader coming back month after month. It could take a long time to develop to a point where it might really take off.

That's a good point. Maybe start with things being advertising supported. Critical mass is necessary so maybe have a bunch of fan fiction that doesn't generate any money and add original fiction for a price (first month free!).

It's pretty obvious that the number of people who want to create content is huge. And not everyone can make a living at it but it's nice to get something back. And, hey, fifty cents when someone likes your story would probably not feel the aching void of no reviews but it's better than another "favorited" message .

[Distracted]

I'm sure there's a fairly simple way to structure a site which will only allow access to dues paying members. I see those all the time. The problem would be the distribution of payments to the authors. That could get horrendously time consuming if done manually 50 cents at a time. I wonder if there's software out there that would allow the creation of member "accounts" which would grant credit toward site dues for payments earned and then pay any excess to the author's PayPal account.

[CX]

I can't say I much like the idea of paying to read someone's fanfic. Sure, you could even claim it's toward site maintenance or whatever, but it still comes down to paying to read fanfic. Frankly, I'm not even willing to pay to read the official stuff - back when I actually still read it, I got it from the library. Only if I thought it was especially good would I buy a copy for my personal collection. And while I understand the thought that, hey, it's sure be nice if I got paid for all this work I'm doing, there are a couple of things I'd say in response to that:

1) I wrote fanfic and I maintain my own website, which includes an archive very much like the one you have here. I've never once asked for donations, nor have I ever once received more than offers of time to help maintain my website, and it isn't because it's free to me or anything. So why do I keep paying to keep this site up that I haven't even been able to add to in years? Love. I do what I do out of love. If I write fanfic, it's out of love of whatever it's based on. I provide an ad-free environment that fanfic writers can have their work available to read out of love for Star Trek and its fandom, as dysfunctional as it can be at times. I've also seen others do a lot more than write fanfic and never see a cent for it for the same reason. For example, have you heard of game mods? How hard to you think it is to make a game, for free? Yet there have been groups that have at least tried to do so. Most of them fail, even promising ones, like Beyond the Red Line and Temporal Cold War, but they still tried and gave it a pretty good shot. There are also successful ones, like Black Mesa and NeoTokyo. Sure, they'll take donations, and they have links up for PayPal, but they don't demand it from you in exchange for downloading the game they worked on for years.

2) If you really want to see money for your writing, then you should stop writing fanfic and start working on your own original work. This holds true even if you do something as lame as changing all the names to a fanfic you already wrote to make something "new" out of it. Hell, if it worked for "Fifty Shades of Gray" it might work for you, right? But the point is, if you're getting to a point where you think you ought to get paid something for your writing, then the training that is fanfic writing has come to an end, and you should take those training wheels off so you can write something original. And no, I'm not trying to talk down to anyone here; I'm trying to encourage you.

[Alelou]

That's true in the current system. Frankly, the way Amazon is describing it, they'd be contracting with authors much the way Pocketbooks does -- so I don't see any reason why an author who's already writing that kind of fic wouldn't want to get paid to write more of it to a wider audience. Whether that is in fact what happens, and whether in the process they have to homogenize what they do to the point of tedium because some committee of license-holders has to approve everything would be my main concern.

And yes, if you really want to make money, it's time to write your own original fic and try to sell it. But I wouldn't quit your day job in any case.

[Alelou]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-2263 ... _244851671

I like that these ladies make fanfic look kind of cool. However, they amuse me with their outrage that at a 35% royalty an author might be giving away their rights.

1) They don't HAVE any rights to fanfic. It's fanfic! Somebody else created those characters. If there's some way that you can legally get paid even a penny for it, you should consider yourself a lucky dog.
2) Actual published authors are incredibly lucky if they make anywhere NEAR 35% royalty on a typical book contract, though the big ones get advances that more than make up for that. But 15% of what they get goes to the agent. And returns get charged against royalties. And smart authors spend a lot of their early advances on their own marketing efforts. Meanwhile, fanfic markets itself. 35% really isn't bad for something you didn't have to make up your own characters for in a product that is already well known to a hungry buying public.
3) If you can REALLY easily change the names of the characters and a few other details and then sell it as original fiction, either you're not getting your ff characterization right, or you're essentially plagiarizing someone else's characters, or all you've really got is plot or porn. Yes, maybe there are some readers who just want that and you're welcome to them, 50 Shades of Grey author.
4) Yes, as CX says, put some of that effort and creativity into your own stuff. Borrow your own fanfic plot if you want. But you'd better start over with your own characters and universe, and you're going to have to find your own readership.

If you ask me, earning 35% for greater distribution and exposure for doing what you were doing for fun anyway is pretty good gravy.

[putaro]

Yah, 35% isn't bad. Don't you just love listening to overly serious people who have absolutely no idea of what they're talking about?

I wonder how much the original rights holders are getting out of this. Pretty easy money for them and Amazon.

[panyasan]

I struggled for two months to write a new chapter. I ended up with 12 pages. The storyline is good, a lot is explained, it ends with a real cliffie, but there is no chemistry between the two main characters (not Trip and T'Pol) and I get this feeling my readers will get bored.

I think I am going to rewrite the whole thing with a new idea I just got.

Don't want you to fall asleep reading my story....

[Alelou]

Ouch. (Especially as a reader waiting for another chapter.) But you're right -- sometimes the best thing to do is to rip stuff up and start over. Good luck with the new idea!

I'm trying to get myself psyched to get North Star going again with something other than a sense of duty to plod through my outline. No more ff outlines for me. They take out too much of the suspense for ME. I'm finally seeing some scenes I want to get to in my head again, though, so there's hope.

And hey, Rigil updated DP! Miracles do happen.

[Jamieson]

CX, a lot of what you wrote mirrors my own concerns and reservations about people wanting to publish fanfic since the trend really picked up speed a few years ago. I've never been comfortable with it, although the way in which Amazon is going about this makes it a little less questionable in my mind, because it is being officially sanctioned (as opposed to incredibly, superbly lucky people who have somehow managed to avoid getting the smack-down from the original authors and licence-holders).

That said, I would only be comfortable (relatively speaking) with them publishing fanfiction in this manner if it is *new* fanfiction, and not previously posted material that has already gone out to the masses for free in the spirit of traditional fanfic. Of course, I'm almost positive that it would be a stipulation in this process anyway, because there's no way they could remove all free copies or previous drafts of the final published story from the internet in this age of copying fanfic for personal archives or to place on ereading devices, etc. "Fifty Shades" and its ilk discovered this quite quickly - it was a main reason why the author had to finally give up and publicly admit to it being fanfic (after months of trying to deny it), because there were too many copies of the original fic floating around for anyone to believe it. These stories have still managed to make an obscene amount of money despite that, but that's because the average consumer has no idea what fanfic even is, let alone the fact that they can go find the story, virtually unchanged beyond some names and places, online for free. In this case, though, because they're showcasing it as fanfic, it would be entirely too easy for the majority of their readers - who would already be at least somewhat familiar with what fanfic is - to do a quick search to see if any lingering copies are located anywhere in the net. I don't condone the practice of distributing the works of other authors to archives/sites where the author has not given permission (especially when the author made the decision to remove the story, regardless of the reason), but I know it happens a lot. For that reason, it doesn't make much business sense for Amazon to put any resources into marketing existing fanfiction, but to instead focus on brand new stuff. So at least that's something.