Status and Support

[WarpGirl]

Well I sill consider the whole incident a war-crime (I know I'm wrong, so what) but my main beef with the man is that he was just unlikable to me. Sisko was too. The problem with the writers is simply this, they never could pick a direction to go and stick with it. Archer in the beginning was sort of an "Aw Shucks" Gary Cooper, or James Stewert archtype, albeit with a massive chip on his shoulder. Then he was Captain Ahab, then he turned into Superman without any weakness to kryptonite.

It was the same with the storyline. Despite the hype about it telling the story of how the Federation was formed, there was very little of it in there. Just stuck in at odd moments and then brought out when they seemed to remember the original idea.

I said it before and I'll say it again... I loved the concept of ENT I love 98% of the characters, both main and regulars. Travis was just dishwater, HOT but dishwater. But the reason I started May We... (and I do want to finish it) is because I have a pathological need to fix all the mistakes they made! Both with the characters, and the storyline.

Archer really suffered from a lack of concrete direction. I would have found it really interesting if in Season 4 he capitalized on his hero status and became more of a political animal. It would have fit given that he was destined to be the first president of The Federation. Instead he just barged his way into things with no tact or diplomacy got into any firefight and basically turned into a Gary-Stu, because his flaws never had lasting consequences.

Like I said, dispite my dislike of the character, I've never had a desire to bash him or to make him look foolish or anything else.

[Cogito]

Hopeful Romantic wrote some interesting fanfic with those Illyrians and the fall-out from what Archer had done. I can't remember the titles, though.

I thought the Illyrian captain was great in that story. Especially his dry observations about how clever Jon was to send a proxy 'Archer' for him to shout at.

[Transwarp]

Well I sill consider the whole incident a war-crime

Yes, it was definitely a crime. But was he morally wrong to take it? That's the interesting question.

The problem with the writers is simply this, they never could pick a direction to go and stick with it. Archer in the beginning was sort of an "Aw Shucks" Gary Cooper, or James Stewert archtype, albeit with a massive chip on his shoulder. Then he was Captain Ahab, then he turned into Superman without any weakness to kryptonite.

It was the same with the storyline. Despite the hype about it telling the story of how the Federation was formed, there was very little of it in there. Just stuck in at odd moments and then brought out when they seemed to remember the original idea.

I believe this might be the best (and most concise) summary of the problem with Archer's character and the show in general that I have ever read!

[WarpGirl]

OMG Transwarp you still like me? Not joking. I just sort of figured that... Nevermind...

I think hurting innocent people is wrong, no matter what the reason. The Iryllians didn't harm anyone, they did nothing wrong, and Archer attacked them. Yes that was Morally wrong. I know nobody here agrees with that, it's very "ends justifies the means" but it's how I feel, and I don't apologize for it.

[Silverbullet]

WG, morally wrong to steal the Warp coil. Morally right to save Earth and seven billion people. Your choice. Archer made his. The lives of the few aliens or the lives of Seven billion Humans?

Archer was in a hell of a spot. He had to choose Earth it was his mission to save it. I would have made Archer's choice. Not saying i would be happy about it and I guess Archer wasn't either.

But Archer and the Crew of the Enterprise had Earth and its Seven billion humans to consider. Trip wasn't happy about it. t'Pol damaned sure wasn't. I suppose Reed and Sato were not happy either.

Suppose the Crew didn't want to steal it? Mutiny. I very much doubt it. They would obey orders.

WG, look at military commanders today and "collateral Damage" They live with it.

SB

[Alelou]

It was obviously morally wrong in the context of Archer and the Illyrians. In the context of the planet Earth and its entire population at risk of being destroyed, maybe not so much. War often requires horribly ugly decisions. The classic one is whether to have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima ... or the second one on Nagasaki. The easy answer is that both decisions were indefensible. The complex answer is that both may have saved far more American and Japanese lives than were lost in those two cities -- by forcing surrender months earlier than it might have otherwise come. People who value moral purity above all will find it easy to condemn the decision. People who are ruthlessly concerned with what works towards victory will find it easy to defend. Most of the rest of us should probably just be really, really glad we didn't have to make that call.

[Rigil Kent]

Isn't this the Status & Support thread?

Status: I am limping along with next chapter of DivPath. Also have between 1/3 and 1/2 of Endeavour: Xolotl complete. In both cases, progress is exceedingly slow.

[Alelou]

What, this isn't the 'free-for-all' thread?

Maybe doing a little reading would inspire you in your own work? I recommend Mary Contrary's "T'Pocalypse." I think you would enjoy it. It's complete at fanfic.net, it's fairly short, it's very original, and it's a real tough and stylish AU.

[WarpGirl]

I know his sounds terribly hard to believe but I am not so terribly ignorent, or innocent that I don't understand that sometimes you have to make questionable decisions in difficult situations. One of my favorite tv episodes ever, is an SGA episode called The Storm where John Shepperd killed 63 people most of them with a knife or his bare hands. Now, granted they attacked first, but he certainly didn't call it morally right! He called it neccessary, which it was. I understand that, and I can put aside my "instance on moral purity" for the sake of the situation.

I object to Archer harming innocent non-combatants and calling it "morally right" in any way shape or form! I still say there were other options and he didn't bother to try and find them.

Rigil I think your muses and my TnT muse went off for a girls weekend in Vegas. I want her back, please relay the message!

[Alelou]

I don't think Archer ever considered that decision morally right. He just considered it necessary. I assume it haunted him the rest of his life, along with other moral failures in the Expanse, but he just kept going, fighting the good fight (sometimes a little too super!Archerly, I'll grant you). That third season with all its non-Trek-like collateral damage and darkness is when I really started to like him, and felt they really started to nail him/mature him as a character.

[WarpGirl]

As I said before, I realize that absolutely nobody agrees with me. I don't ask them too.

[Alelou]

I doubt you're all alone in that. My husband would undoubtedly see it your way.

[WarpGirl]

That's sweet. But I understand that in this part of the web, I walk alone in most things. It's okay, I'm used to being different.

[Rigil Kent]

Even though I think this actually belongs elsewhere and in a different thread...

I object to Archer harming innocent non-combatants and calling it "morally right" in any way shape or form!

When did he say that? I'm pretty far from Archer's biggest fan but I seem to recall him acting in such a way as to imply that he knew it was morally wrong but was ultimately necessary for Earth's survival. I seem to recall the Illyrian captain was uninterested in assisting them to get to the meeting point with Degra so Archer chose a course of action that he did not like but thought necessary. Ultimately, it was thematically intended to highlight the Nietzsche phrase "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster" - we began the season with Archer being disgusted by pirates, but doing that very thing at this point.

But I never saw him as saying it was morally right.

Rigil I think your muses and my TnT muse went off for a girls weekend in Vegas. I want her back, please relay the message!

My Muses have been gone for a lot longer than a weekend.

[WarpGirl]

I don't believe I ever said, Archer said he was morally right. I also don't believe he ever said it was wrong either. He did rationalize his decision and I don't hold much with rationalizing what's wrong. My opinion, be honest about it, come out and say, "Yes this is wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway."

Maybe they have, I think my muse just used her cell and said, "meet me in Vegas."