Necessity

[Asso]

OK.

I get angry when Trip and T'Pol (but, to tell the truth, not only they) are put in situations that the writer wrote with the clear purpose to make them act badly and offensively to the readers. To humiliate them, in order to stun readers. I feel uncomfortable, in this case. I feel "ill at ease". This is a plain example of what I mean as a "Gratuitous Angst".
Obviously among many other things.

[WarpGirl]

That is very subjective. So are you saying everytime T'Pol is captured by Orians to be sold as a slave is "humiliating" her, or everytime Trip gets tortured it's "humiliating" him? What constitutes them "acting badly?" How can you tell if the author's intent is to "stun readers?"

[Asso]

Once again you and I run the risk of debating inanely. Please, don't try to put in my mouth the words that I didn't say. And don't try to search for abstruse significances for what is perfectly understandable.
Everything can be written, of course, but readers are not stupid: they are able to detect what it's the writer's aim.
And I don't think we are Monads, closed into the circle of our lives. Not infrequently under the subjectivity's mantle we try to hide our concealed and foolish will to be alone.

[panyasan]

That is very subjective. So are you saying everytime T'Pol is captured by Orians to be sold as a slave is "humiliating" her, or everytime Trip gets tortured it's "humiliating" him? What constitutes them "acting badly?" How can you tell if the author's intent is to "stun readers?"

It depends on how they acted. In the show T'Pol was caught by the Orions, but she should clearly she hated them and managed to escape. If T'Pol and Trip are fighting together to find a solution, even when there is abuse, it's very different that when T'Pol is treating Trip badly, like insulting him, denying their relationship, not supportive etc. etc. in that same situation. If a writer writes something really shocking with no implications to the plot, just brushes it over, you got the idea the writer just likes to write something shocking to stun the readers.

[WarpGirl]

OK Asso this is when I leave the conversation. Obviously you think I am trying to start trouble when I just wanted clarification. To you things may be "perfectly understandable" but to other people they may not be so "understandable."

[Asso]

You want always clarifications, WarpGirl.

[Silverbullet]

Asso, What do I want? More of your writing. There is nothing obtuse about your writings. It is clear and understandable to anyone. You do not write for shock value or to see if you can upset the most people. There are hundres of very good writers out there writing excellent stories and then there are some who should not be writing at all because of what they write and for the reasons they write it.

slash is utter dross and can be ignored by most and read by some who wallow in that filth.

But I have read one woman who seems to glory in putting Rape into her stories. She managed to have the entire female crew of the Enterprise Raped several times and T-Pol raped for a few days. I could never folllow the story bvecause it jumped around so much. There was three parts and I never finished the first much less read the other two. but this was a prime example of what is gratuitous Angst and sexual abuse for shock value alone.

So, ASSO, I want your writings and Authors who write as you do with dignity and respect for the characters and with Originality.

[justTripn]

I could understand Asso.

As for my position, I dislike stories that are way too contrived (including contrived for angst). But real life is full of angst and if the story is written to parallel a believable life (of course slightly hyped up or enhanced for the sake of entertainment), that is fine with me.

[Escriba]

*sigh* I feel such a déjà vu... Didn't we discussed about angst which led to a heated argument that ended in a closed thread?

For the record, I think that:

a) Everybody has a different definition of "angst" and a different tolerance to it.
b) I really are cautelous about accusing people of writing something "for the shake of it" or just to "shock readers", since, again, everybody has a different notion of what makes a good plot good and what is actually "shocking."
c) I don't like the bashing of an entire genre just because I don't like it (and no, Asso, this isn't directed to you )
d) A good plot is like the Three Laws of Newton. In fact, it follows the first and the third: "A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force" and "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." That's means: you need a premise that puts everybody in action and once there is something happening, it must have consequences. See? Simple

By the way, I do like AU stories very much (obviously) but I can understand if somebody likes to read something more related to canon (whatever this is...)

[Asso]

*sigh* I feel such a déjà vu... Didn't we discussed about angst which led to a heated argument that ended in a closed thread?

For the record, I think that:

a) Everybody has a different definition of "angst" and a different tolerance to it.
b) I really are cautelous about accusing people of writing something "for the shake of it" or just to "shock readers", since, again, everybody has a different notion of what makes a good plot good and what is actually "shocking."
c) I don't like the bashing of an entire genre just because I don't like it (and no, Asso, this isn't directed to you )
d) A good plot is like the Three Laws of Newton. In fact, it follows the first and the third: "A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force" and "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." That's means: you need a premise that puts everybody in action and once there is something happening, it must have consequences. See? Simple

By the way, I do like AU stories very much (obviously) but I can understand if somebody likes to read something more related to canon (whatever this is...)

You're right, Escriba, and, in fact, it wasn't my intention to promote any debate. I wanted merely to explain my feelings about some comments I found on my latest story, because some people appeared to me to get surprised I wrote a story full with angst (even if, to tell the truth, I had already done that.)
At the same time I wanted to clarify my position about AU Universes, giving some responses to something that I have read on "New Fanfic Up" thread. I thought It was inopportune I used that thread, and so (You know I'm a narcissist! ) I started this one.
But, honestly, I didn't think I could light any spark.

[Transwarp]

My take on angst is really, really simple. I can handle any kind of angst if it's well-written.

Dinah's 'The Thorn and the Rose' has got to be one of the angstiest things I've ever read. Trip suffers tremendously, but I enjoyed every page. Why? Because it was damned good writing! And when our couple finally got together, after so much hurt and heartache, it was a beautiful thing.

The angst in the series, on the other hand, was NOT well-written. Too much up-and-down, on-again-off-again. No logical consistency. The writers couldn't seem to make their minds. That's what I would characterize as poorly-written angst, and I don't like it.

[WarpGirl]

We're all here to discuss and sometimes debate over these things. Debate isn't a bad thing, being mean or rude is. If we can't debate then why bother?

[panyasan]

*sigh* I feel such a déjà vu... Didn't we discussed about angst which led to a heated argument that ended in a closed thread?

For the record, I think that:

a) Everybody has a different definition of "angst" and a different tolerance to it.
b) I really are cautelous about accusing people of writing something "for the shake of it" or just to "shock readers", since, again, everybody has a different notion of what makes a good plot good and what is actually "shocking."
c) I don't like the bashing of an entire genre just because I don't like it (and no, Asso, this isn't directed to you )
d) A good plot is like the Three Laws of Newton. In fact, it follows the first and the third: "A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force" and "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." That's means: you need a premise that puts everybody in action and once there is something happening, it must have consequences. See? Simple

By the way, I do like AU stories very much (obviously) but I can understand if somebody likes to read something more related to canon (whatever this is...)

Good point, Escriba! Indeed, you can't know what intentions a writer has, unless you are that writer.

[Silverbullet]

I am from a different Era. I have seen and lived angst. I know it first hand. I DON'T need it my readonmgs. I read to be entertained. Not have my nose shoved in angst. I want my favorite characters trated with Duignity and Respect. There can be dangerous situations and hairbredth escapes etc. Good Drama. I thimk that ASSO as a Doctor has seen his share of Angst. Perhaps I am immersed in Escapism but I don't wwant an Angst filled story. Especially if it gratuitous Angst.

I believe that ASSO's e2 story was brilliant. Well written concise but wrenching. The Subject was sacrifice. It was done beautifully. Trip's and T-Pol's sacrifice. I didn't see Angst in that.

[Asso]

...I thimk that ASSO as a Doctor has seen his share of Angst.

Oh well... I'm an Oncologist, and I'm a teacher. The first thing I teach my my pupils is : REMEMBER, IT'S A PERSON, NOT A DISEASE, IN FRONT OF YOU!

...I believe that ASSO's e2 story was brilliant. Well written concise but wrenching. The Subject was sacrifice. It was done beautifully. Trip's and T-Pol's sacrifice. I didn't see Angst in that.

Obviously I'm proud of your words, but, in addition, I think you made a good point: what is angst? which perception have we about it?