Trip's Mistakes

[WarpGirl]

Trust me some mothers are not pleasent I get that, but it seems to me that if we didn't have our mothers men wouldn't have us. You should thank them. Look I'm not saying that a woman should constantly put mama before her family, in fact shame on those who do. But T'Les could have been executed, killed, dead, never to see another day. I think in extreme circumstances people could sit down and shut up without a fuss. And my Father's mother can make life difficult but I love her and so does my mom.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, I guess I am looking at this from a males point of view.

I see Trip as a guy who is so damed much in love with a woman that he doesn't know if he is on foot or horseback.

She is his be all and end all.

I believe that Trip would charge Hell with a bucket of water for her.

His life is hers and is his heart. He would lose both to keep her safe.

I see T-Pol as too conflicted and a little too willing to put Trip second to others.

Her comitment to him is not as total as his is to her.

Like many other males he is looking for a signal from her to let him know that he can proceed with his suit that she feels the same for him now.

I always go the idea that if t-Pol were honest with Trip that night she would have told him that when he held her she felt safe, secure, wanted and loved.

I could never understand how she could pierce his heart so easily.

I still believe it is because she knew that he would always love her and that he would be there waiting when she finally came to him.

[WarpGirl]

Hey I agree about Trip. I don't agree about T'Pol. We are talking about two very different cultures, belief systems, and physiologies. T'Pol doesn't want to shatter Trip's heart, she doesn't even realize that she has at first. She believed that their night together in "Harbinger" could be casual to him because he HAS been casual with at least 2 other alien women. He never mentioned love or commitment, so how would she know that is what he wanted? I'm sorry she HAD to save her mother, and Trip knew that and he supported her. Yeah I agree that she screwed up after the divorce, but she was in a tailspin. Her culture had been shaken to its roots, her mother was dead, and she had no clue what she was supposed to be. Should she have turned to Trip? YES! But she probably felt that she was incapable of being a good mate to him at that point.

She didn't say "Get out of my life." She said, "Give me time to get my life in order. Give me time to find my path, so when the time is right we can walk together."

Trip didn't take it that way because Vulcan English and human English don't match up sometimes in translation. But Trip stopped asking questions and when he did that things got worse. Nobody is completely to blame for the mess, but I think people are way too hard on T'Pol.

[panyasan]

I understand both sides, I can totally sympathize with Silverbullets arguments and see Warpgirls points as well.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, T-Les was NOT in any danger. She had been forced into retirement but that was all.
she was not under a death threat. As she indicated to t-Pol the High council was using T-les as a cats paw to get at T-Pol. but that was it. That was a lie but I believe it was a lie designed to coerce t-Pol into the marriage with Koss.

Neverrtheless t-Les was never in any danger until she decided to go with the group into the Forge and only then because the whole group was in danger. T-Les was killed in a bombing aimed at the group as a whole.

So, t-Pol sacrifice by marrying Koss was to restore her mothers position at the acadamy not to save her life.

[WarpGirl]

Well what is it they say, "Men are form Mars and Women from Venus?" If humans have problems communication with each other than different spieces have it worse.

[Escriba]

If it weren't impossible for a Vulcan, I would say that T'Pol (in)consciously sabotages her life at every chance of happiness.

Anyway, yes, Trip doesn't fight for T'Pol in "Harbinger" and that's an error from the Vulcan POV (while, from the Human POV, letting things are they were was perfectly logical.) But I don't think he has any idea of that. I don't see Vulcans giving any detail about their mating rituals. I don't think they even talked about the kal-if-fee or the pon-farr. I don't see Cosmopolitan publishing an article about the "10 tricks to date a Vulcan"

And in "E2" he gives her mixed signals because she gives him mixed signals in "The Forgotten", suddenly being so compassionate. I've always thought that she really helped him then. Not just in the scene we see. I imagined that he broke up and she went with him to his cabin and she took care of him all that time (making excuses, bringing him the meal and tea... etc.) But, you know, that's just in my mind Aside from all the things that have been said, in my opinion T'Pol rejects Trip in "E2" for fear too. Trip is talking about the things in Enterprise 2 as a possible and wanted future, but if he wouldn't have been so excited he would have taken note that in Enterprise 2 he's quite dead. So if things happen as he says, he would die much before T'Pol. And that would be horrible for her. I see Trip a little dense here.

The two of them are equally guilty of not saying what they really think when they should and especially not telling each other what they really feel (as panyasan pointed out.)

[WarpGirl]

The two of them are equally guilty of not saying what they really think when they should and especially not telling each other what they really feel (as panyasan pointed out.)

Exactly! There is no good guy, bad guy, but sometimes T'Pol is raked over hot coals. But I disagree that T'Pol sent mixed signals in "The Forgotten" she has been supporting him and trying to help him with Lizzy's death LONG before she dropped her robe and seduced him. While she isn't a perfect lover, she was a very good friend for a long time. In E2 she admits too T'Pol2 that she is terrorfied about her feelings. But again I say it doesn't matter, the fact is there was bigger things to worry over besides romance. Trip should have either hounded Phlox until he knew about T'Pol's condition, or backed off. It was NOT the right time for romance.

[Silverbullet]

What is the right time for romance?

For instance: in WWII couples had to decide whether to marry before the male went overseas and in harms way or wait until the war was over and he was home safe. some chose right now and others chose to wait. But the romance was there all of the time. the love was there and was declared.

So T-Pol had some issues. as the old t-Pol told her Trip could help her if she would just trust him (read love him) t-Pol fought that advice.

Trip sent the same signal all of the time. He was hers and would always be hers. He would stand by her through thick and thin all she had to do is ask. The love was there for her to see.

T-Pol in a way was a coward. She rejected Trip but pulled him back to herself. Push - Pull trip was jerked around. t-Pol deliberately lied to him even though she knew it would hurt him. Especially in the morning after scene.

What could Trip think, he was seduced by this woman and then she tells him that it was just an exploration. That was Horse PUckey and he knew it but again he stood by her. He took it and even tried to ease the situation she created by sayng that maybe we should forget the whole thing happened.

I have read some comments that Trip was a jerk for taking all of the crap that T-Pol handed him and coming back for more.

T-Pol's excuse that she had issues had some merit but she still had enough control to see that she had Trip to count on always.

She didn't deserve Trip or his love. She stomped on his heart constantly even at times where there was no need to do so.

[WarpGirl]

OK I agree to disagree.

[Distracted]

Heh. We've had this discussion in the past ad nauseum. What it often boils down to is that male fans commonly identify with Trip and female fans often identify with T'Pol. (Not always. Just mostly.) So the guys will often put themselves in Trip's shoes...being jerked around and played with by a wishy-washy woman who doesn't know WHAT the heck she wants... and the gals put themselves in T'Pol's shoes...in a strange frightening place with beings she doesn't understand, losing the respect of her people and then losing her mother... and then the man that she's scared to death to love (but loves anyway) doesn't even want her enough to fight for her.

This isn't resolvable. Both are valid viewpoints. So we'll just continue to enjoy all the stories which have resulted from the difference of opinions. Isn't it great?

[WarpGirl]

Yes it's wonderful. But despite the fact that I post here constantly I'm still a newbie, and every time this came up I saw men and women stretching T'Pol on the metephorical rack. And yes I have been known to criticize her behavior with Trellium D, but I honestly can't fault her entirely for the unstable mess that is the TnT romance.

[JadziaKathryn]

Hmm, I'm still in the it's-mostly-T'Pol's-fault camp. (See Control.) Now, Trip wasn't perfect, although I think by the end he was trying to guard his heart a bit. I do think his not telling T'Pol he loved her and thus forcing her to choose between him and Koss/her mother's honor/etc was tragically noble. Because it would've given her more angst and all... like he told T'Les. Yes, tragically noble.

[WarpGirl]

Dang! That was beautiful. But I can't agree. It's called "the Vulcan database" it was given to Enterprise when T'Pol was assigned. (see "Broken Bow") All Trip had to do was google (metaphorically) 'marriage' and he would have found out what he needed to know. Now I'm not saying he's discover Pon Farr, and private stuff like that. But I'm sure the betrothal rituals and the fact that Vulcans do not engage in casual sex would be mentioned. He didn't even bother to ask any questions. Why? Usually you can't get him to stop, but all of the sudden he's agreeing to "forget it happened." Yeah right! What guy can forget taking a woman's virginity? I'm sorry it's just so stupid, and so killer B's.

[JadziaKathryn]

Does Trip have access to the Vulcan database?