T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[Aikiweezie]

I must be bored, 'cuz I started to think of all the things that make T'Pol a very different kind of Vulcan - a maverick - a rebel - reckless at times.

She did a lot of things over the course of the series that were taboo to Vulcans!

So far I've come up with
1) Refusing to marry Koss
2) Eating sweets (pecan pie)
3 Practicing neuropressure on a human
3) Having sex outside of marriage with that human
4) Eating with her hands
5) Engaging in a mind meld
6) Drinking alcohol
7) Abusing an addictive substance (trellium D)

Did I miss anything? Did you find this things appealing or annoying?

[WarpGirl]

I better not be killed for responding OK! First of all, I don't believe your list is quite accurate. For one thing, a few of your "UnVulcan" activities aren't technically "UnVulcan" ENT just made them seem that way. For example mind-melds, drinking alcohol, and eating sweets. If you ask me her initial discourtesy, flagrant emotionalism, and prejudice in season 1 is far more "UnVulcan." The only time I remember her eating with her hands is in "Bounty" and she was drugged into Plak Tau, so it hardly counts. And I think that Trip and T'Pol's mating bond was already forming when they had sex, so you could argue that they were married. Still, I hate "Harbinger" and that is only one of the many reasons for it. I think I've made it pretty clear how I feel about the trellium D, so I refuse to rehash that. I don't see T'Pol as a "mavrick" or "rebel" I know most people like to in order to justify her behavior, but again ENT screwed up Vulcans so badly taking away their individualism that sometimes it seems like you have to classify T'Pol in such a way.

If you need an example of an UnVulcan moment, there was a scene from the "Augment Arc" where she asks Archer why Earth didn't "terminate" the genetically engineered embryos after the Eugenics War. Vulcans respect ALL life, they won't even kill animals for food if it isn't necessary. They won't even eat animal flesh that they didn't kill. Why would they advocate destroying embryos? This isn't a pro-life rant, this is an obsevation of Vulcan culture. Also with the medical technology availible it seems unlikely that abortion is a common practice. Why bother when you can remove the fetus and put it in an artificial womb? So T'Pol's remark doesn't sit well with me. Her nervous breakdown in "The Seventh" was also rediculous. But NOTHING could have saved that episode. It was just bad.

[Aikiweezie]

Noone's gonna kill 'ya Warp Girl, just disagree!
I feel like I have to defend myself, though.

1) Refusing to marry Koss was a HUGE Vulcan No-No
2) Eating sweets (pecan pie) - When Trip offers T'Pol some in "Breaking the ice" she just glares at him. Later when she's alone she indulges.
3 Practicing neuropressure on a human - She tells Trip is hasn't been done before. (as far as she knows)
3) Having sex outside of marriage with that human - I agree she had feelings for him, but I do NOT think she was aware that a bond was beginning.
4) Eating with her hands - I can name two times, at a movie she digs into shared bucket of popcorn (I think it's Archer's), AND she eats a peach that Trip gives her - with her hands.
5) Engaging in a mind meld - The "Vulcans without locic" were enaging in what mainstream Vulcans considered to be deviant and illegal activities at that time in Vulcan history.
6) Drinking alcohol - Several times various Vulcans state that Vulcans do not drink. T'Pol drinks wine in Carbon Creek and Soval drinks Andorian Ale in another episode.
7) Abusing an addictive substance (trellium D) - Simply illogical all around.

As far as the embyros in the "Augment Arc" goes, I think T'Pol was playing devil's advocate to Archer. That's her job to some extent. She never suggests anything like that to Trip when he gets "knocked up."

[Alelou]

I don't know that I think she's just playing Devil's advocate, though that's a good point. But the "life" in the Augments embryos was considered unnatural, illegal and extremely dangerous to other life. For some, that might change the equation to an issue of the good of the many versus the good of the few.

[WarpGirl]

Noone's gonna kill 'ya Warp Girl, just disagree!
I feel like I have to defend myself, though.

1) Refusing to marry Koss was a HUGE Vulcan No-No
2) Eating sweets (pecan pie) - When Trip offers T'Pol some in "Breaking the ice" she just glares at him. Later when she's alone she indulges.
3 Practicing neuropressure on a human - She tells Trip is hasn't been done before. (as far as she knows)
3) Having sex outside of marriage with that human - I agree she had feelings for him, but I do NOT think she was aware that a bond was beginning.
4) Eating with her hands - I can name two times, at a movie she digs into shared bucket of popcorn (I think it's Archer's), AND she eats a peach that Trip gives her - with her hands.
5) Engaging in a mind meld - The "Vulcans without locic" were enaging in what mainstream Vulcans considered to be deviant and illegal activities at that time in Vulcan history.
6) Drinking alcohol - Several times various Vulcans state that Vulcans do not drink. T'Pol drinks wine in Carbon Creek and Soval drinks Andorian Ale in another episode.
7) Abusing an addictive substance (trellium D) - Simply illogical all around.

As far as the embyros in the "Augment Arc" goes, I think T'Pol was playing devil's advocate to Archer. That's her job to some extent. She never suggests anything like that to Trip when he gets "knocked up."

Actually refusing to marry Koss IS HER RIGHT as a Vulcan woman. She always has the right of Kal'i'fee, what makes her refusal unacceptable is the WAY she did it. Remember a Vulcan woman has the right to be her own champion in a Kal'i'fee something ENT screwed up on majorly. But she didn't go home to challenge the marriage or be her own champion. THAT was what was unacceptable, and of course she had no logical reason to do so. During this time she had no romantic attatchment to Trip, and certainly no bond. So yes her actions were untraditional but not a no no. Eating sweets and drinking was an ENT fabrication at no other time do Vulcans have any restrictions of such things, only meat. Nuropressure might not have been traditional either but it was logical to keep Trip healthy in the Expanse. V'Las' govt would have cried FOUL but Surakian logic would have accepted this. Yes she didn't know a bond was forming during her night with Trip but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. Therefore you could argue they were married. I remeber the popcorn now. But again this isn't a no no this is an aceptable cultural practice when dealing with the customs of another spieces. Her job is to become a part of a human crew. Vulcans might find it distasteful, but hardly radical. The peach was done when she was alone. The mind meld thing was a peversion of the VHC and has no basis to be called a rebel activity. The Alcohol doesn't make sense because Vulcans have vinyards and produce port. And I told you I'm not adressing TD. My point is that the things you've listed might have been unacceptable in ENT but they are based on a corrupt govt so T'Pol is technically NOT A REBEL! I'm not mad just passionate.

[Aikiweezie]

Warp Girl - you & me just disagree!

Taken directly fron StarTrek.Com's bio of T'Pol.

"As a child, T'Pol was betrothed to a Vulcan named Koss. Her wedding to him would have meant the end of her assignment on Enterprise — once again, she bucked tradition and decided not to go through with it. This no doubt put a strain on her family relations and helped to brand her amongst her people as unorthodox, to say the least."

(She did not call the Kalifee, which would have been acceptable) - she just called it off.

"Although T'Pol's behavior might seem extremely conservative and cold to her fellow crewmembers, it is radical when compared to standard Vulcan behavior."

[WarpGirl]

First of all why hasn't ST.com updated the dang bios?! OK to the Vulcans BEFORE the discovery of the Kir'Shara T'Pol is a radical but those views DON'T COUNT! They are not the true teachings of Surak, and they have no basis in determining "Standard Vulcan Behavior." V'Las and thee Romulans had taken over the Vulcan govt. and corrupted generations with misinformation, therefore to judge T'Pol's behavior as radical on that criteria makes no sense. If you need to get technical she didn't really call the betrothal off, she asked for another postponment. She assumed his family would cancel the engagement, because they threatened too. That's what she said in "Breaking The Ice." So realistically she hasn't been so radical to make her a pariah. I never said she was TRADITIONAL, I said she wasn't a rebel. Big difference. The only radical behavior she truly exhibited was Trellium use and that was bad enough.

As too her truly "UnVulcan" behavior, there is an incedent in "Flight or Fight" where Archer asks her if she would advocate abandoning the dead aliens if they were Vulcan. Her response is "They aren't Vulcan." This is the type of improper Vulcan behavior that is instilled in the generations ruled over by the VHC. This is the so called "Radical" behavior that is unbefiting a Vulcan. Her displays of prejudice and emotions, like anger during the first season are UnVulcan. They become involuntary after the Pa'nar. Yes I know we disagree but I don't take ENT Vulcans as "True Vulcans" before the Vulcan Arc because they are not.

[Asso]

Excuse me, Ladies, I know you will blame me, but do you think Trip, when he fell in love with T'Pol, wondered how much un-vulcan she was?
Like any woman, she's unique.
Vulcan or Human, a woman is unique for her man, and probably the T'Pol's uniqueness is the consequence of her love for Trip.
You know: it's difficult for me to find behaviour's explanations which don't have their roots in the depth of our soul, in our feelings.
That also for T'Pol.
Obviously in my whispered opinion.

[WarpGirl]

Oh ASSO I think I got most of that. OK in the beginning I don't believe Trip thought Vulcans were capable of being unique individuals, so yeah T'Pol knocks his socks off in that regard. Of course it is a factor in what makes him fall in love with her, just like his own uniqueness as an individual is a factor in what makes her fall in love with him. But that is my point! ENT attempted to destroy the idea that Vulcans were supposed to behave as unique individuals before the Vulcan Arc. Hence, judging T'Pol by Vulcan standars before that Arc makes no sense. Because Vulcans were not following Surak to begin with. OK end rant. Oh and ASSO I have no clue what you mean by the last part.

[Asso]

Well, substantially we have the same ideas.
I will try to explain what i wanted to mean by my last part.
I am absolutely convinced that emotions and feelings are the engine of everything. It's possible that you know already what I think of the resemblances between Humans and Vulcans. It's "illogical" and "anti-scientific" the idea that such similar bodies can have different behaviours, or - rather - too much different feelings and emotions.
The two races can react differently in front of them, but basically their behaviour has to be the same, apart the cultural differences.
That's the point. Sometimes I feel like we were plunged in some sort of mystification, almost deliberately or foolishly made and pursued. When I hear that T'Pol's conduct is not the proper conduct for a Vulcan, I inevitably feel slightly frustrated, because thinking that T'Pol's emotions and feelings are different from those of Humans, is like thinking that Occidental emotions and feelings are different from those of Oriental people.

[WarpGirl]

Yey I FINALLY get it! Sorry for being such an idiot. OK here I go... You see you're right in that Vulcans and humans have the same emotions. Just like we Italians (or half Italians in my case) have the same emotions as someone from Korea. But in Korea is would be VERY wrong to kiss your wife or husband on the lips in public, sometimes kissing on the lips at all is discouraged. Now does that mean a husband and wife in Korea aren't in love with each other? No that's just idiotic.

Well it's the same with Vulcans and humans only exaggerated. A Vulcan brain is different from a human brain, makes sense after all, they are aliens. So while a Vulcan brain releases all the same chemicals and hormones that our brains do to make emotions, it also processes them differently. That's because the ratios of chemicals are different. Therefore a Vulcan cannot express their emotions (like kissing their mates in public) without risking loosing control and damaging their brains through a chemical imbalance. Even that worthless scum Tolaris says that the V'tosh Kat'ur have to practice meditation and other diciplines in order to keep their sanity. Although he obviously is a bad man he is accurate.

Most of the so called "bad behavior" mentioned here isn't really improper at all in the entire context of Vulcan Culture. T'Pol's major fall from Vulcan grace is TD. And you know what I think about that already.

[Asso]

I said to you that our ideas are substantially similar.
One little thought, still.
I tend to be slightly more radical.
For me, Vulcans are NOT Aliens, not at all. Simply they are born on another planet.
Otherwise, they should be ABSOLUTELY different from how they are and appear.
I know, this idea is strange, maybe not perfectly welcome for many people, but this is what I think.

[WarpGirl]

Um well, that makes no sense to me. Sorry but the pointed ears kind of make it certain that they're not human. That and the green blood, the telepathic abilities, the slanted eyebrows... The list goes on. Unless you know humans that can mind meld in which case I'm scared! Do you think the Xindi are long lost cousins too?

[Silverbullet]

Damn, Lost a post. shot to the wind.

Ah well this way it won't bore ou.

[WarpGirl]

Hey Silverbullet what were you going to say? Now I MUST know!