Vulcan Arc

[Enerdhil]

One question for Navy-related people: an engineer can have a commission to captain a ship? For what I feel, those are parallel, non crossing lines on the careers... (except for temporary or emergency situations)

[Silverbullet]

Epends on the circumstances: Where he is on the chain of command. In an emergency and he is the ranking officer still on his/her feet then he would take command of the ship.

But normally a chief Engineer can obtain the rank of Captain and be assigned to a huge Aircraft Carrier where his reponsibilities woould be greater and the Engineering staff under his command would be almost as large as a crew on a Destoryer.

I am not sure if Chief Engineers are sent to Command School although it would make snese to do so.

Chain of Command takes priority in an Emgergency situation especially in Wartime. BTW, a foreign Offier could not take command, period. (Regardless what Hollywood says)

Interesting question though.

I was wondering about something like this the other day: I was thinking, what if all of the officers on Board ship were in the Wardroom, but the Captain, when a shell hit it killing them all. Could the Captain offer a "Battle Field" commision to one of his CPO's (Chief Petty Officer) I know that in the Army and the Marine Corps a Batle field Commision can be offered to A senior enlisted man (Usualy a Master Sgt but on occasion an outstanding lower ranking Sgt.) A Batle Field commision can only be offered to an Enlisted personell of one's own military. Not a foreighn Civilian. I wonder if the right conditions ever existed for that to happen.

SB

[Transwarp]

One question for Navy-related people: an engineer can have a commission to captain a ship? For what I feel, those are parallel, non crossing lines on the careers... (except for temporary or emergency situations)

I was enlisted in the Navy (2 years active, 2 reserve) back in the mid-seventies. A commissioned officer is a commissioned officer, so the chief engineer of a ship could command a vessel, in theory. In actuality, I'm not sure how often that happens. That would be a question for someone with experience in the commissioned officer ranks. I know there are officers who spend their entire careers in engineering assignments; I just don't know how many engineering officers become ship's captains. My guess is it's not common, but I don't really know.

Here's something else I'm hazy on... Suppose you had a ship with a Commander as the CO, a Lieutenant Commander as XO, and a Lieutenant as the First Lieutenant (head of Deck Department). Assume the ChEng is a Lieutenant Commander.

If the CO and XO are killed, who would assume command? I think it would be the First Lieutenant, even though he is outranked by the ChEng. I have no evidence to back this up, just a dim memory.

[WarpGirl]

Gracious I'm confused! I thought I knew about this stuff. Must be braindead.

[Lady Rainbow]

Here's something else I'm hazy on... Suppose you had a ship with a Commander as the CO, a Lieutenant Commander as XO, and a Lieutenant as the First Lieutenant (head of Deck Department). Assume the ChEng is a Lieutenant Commander.

If the CO and XO are killed, who would assume command? I think it would be the First Lieutenant, even though he is outranked by the ChEng. I have no evidence to back this up, just a dim memory.

),

I think it's the First Lieutenant, if he's on the bridge and the CO and XO are killed. He's the highest ranking officer there at the time. If the ChEng is occupied with keeping the ship in one piece, I'd think his function comes first at that particular moment.

There are two kinds of commissioned officers. line officers who are are eligible to take command if needed. (On ENT, that would be Archer, [T'Pol], Trip, Malcolm, Travis, Hoshi. If Hoshi was the only officer standing on the Bridge, with only enlisted people left, she'd be in command. Doesn't matter she's an Ensign or that she's the ship's linguist/comm officer.). Then there are staff officers who can't, no matter their rank (Medical, here. Even if Phlox was Starfleet and outranked Trip or Malcolm, he cannot take command).

[Lady Rainbow]

Sorry, double post.

[Enerdhil]

Then there are staff officers who can't, no matter their rank (Medical, here. Even if Phlox was Starfleet and outranked Trip or Malcolm, he cannot take command).

In TNG, Dr. Crusher had the command badge. Troi followed her example to took also it.

[Alelou]

I had the impression Crusher had to do some additional work to get that, though. And it was a fairly late development. I got the feeling a sort of belated feminism was allowed to creep in quietly as the series got older and the ratings were solid. Maybe Jeri Taylor got more clout. Maybe it was something the actresses wanted.

[aadarshinah]

Yeah, she had to take the bridge officer's test in one of the later seasons. But that begs the question of whether a) such a test existed in the early days of Starfleet and b) whether or not a CoE would normally be in the command structure. I'd think so, but what do I know.

[Silverbullet]

Lady Rainbow, we are talking in an Emgergency. first the CE has a qualiified staff to run Engineering while he is on the bridge. Second, Chain of command take priority. The CE is the highest Ranking Officer on board he takes command. The bridge crew would help him as much as possible but he would have to make decieions. He would have command expeirience since commanding an engineering room gives him that experience.

You are right staff Officers like doctors would not be in the chain of comand and could not take command.

One of the problems with chain of command is that there could be a jerk somewhere in there who could possibly come in to command. the others would need to keep that person distracted while the others worked around him.

Chain of command has been around since the beginning of the Military. It has seeped into government, business and Organizations because it works (one of the few things in the millitay that has stood the test of time) It lets everyone know who isin charge at all times. If no chain of command a situation could arise where five Senior Lt's could all claim to be in charge, issuing orders and creating chaos. Chain of command takes care of that. the Lt would go by time in grade time in servcice for thier place in the chain of command.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I would think that only line officers would be in the chain-of-command. That would be the guys wearing gold (later red) in Trek. While there might be others with nominal officer's commissions, they would be more like specialists and not in the command chain. Those would be doctors, scientists and engineers. Alas, Trek never established anything coherent regarding this, even going to such stupid lengths as to have shrinks (Troi) and surgeons (Crusher) be eligible for taking the big seat after just a few tests.

I have an old book about naval ranks in different countries, including Sweden, and in some of them these officers not in the chain of command wore coloured stripes between the gold rank stripes. Engineering was mostly red, IIRC. In the U.S. the star above the stripes would be replaced with another symbol. You can frequently see that on JAG, where the JAG officers wore some legal symbol instead of the star.

The army had/has similar distinguishing marks as to not confuse a "real" officer with a doctor, some administrative clerk or whatever, even if the latter held officer's ranks. In Sweden there was a coloured band/stripe at the bottom of the shoulder flap, below the rank insignia.

Ideally Trip wouldn't be in the command chain, since he's an engineer. Spock wouldn't either since he's the science officer. Reed should be wearing gold. But in Trek it seems everyone (well, almost) who is wearing a Starfleet uniform also has command training. Seems a waste of time, resources and talents if you ask me.

[aadarshinah]

Ideally Trip wouldn't be in the command chain, since he's an engineer. Spock wouldn't either since he's the science officer. Reed should be wearing gold. But in Trek it seems everyone (well, almost) who is wearing a Starfleet uniform also has command training. Seems a waste of time, resources and talents if you ask me.

I can kinda see how it would make sense to have "specialists" like engineers and scientists with command training in the early years of starfleet, when there were fewer officers stationed on a ship. As best I can tell, in ENT, Enterprise has a captain, 2 commanders, maybe 4 Lt if you look throughout the seasons, and, again, maybe 8 ensigns if you look hard enough - so you'd basically have to take your command officeers where you can get them.

In later treks though, when the ships are larger and there are families and such aboard ship, I can see a point being made that an engineer or a scientist or a counsler wouldn't need command training unless they made a specific point to seek it - for an engineer, maybe to hold a juicy R&D positing; for a doctor, to command a deicated medical ship as Crusher does in one of Q's alternate timelines; for a counsler... I guess just because - to further their careers...

[Silverbullet]

Spock was also First Officer so he would be in the Chain of Command as the second Ranking Officer on board. Scotty was a Lt Commander if I am not wrong. I think in one, maybe two, episode he ws in the Capains chair while everyone above him was off ship.


You are right about insignia for diferent jobs. Artillery, Infrantry, medics. However, some clerks wore a Combat Infantrymans Badge because they had some training and could be pressed in to the line if an emgergency arose as the "Battle of the Bulge"

I think under normal circumstances Trip would still be second highest ranking officer on board and the FO by default. He would have command experience so it would not be out of place for him to be in the Chain of Command. Usualy the Chain of Command ony becomes important in an Emgergency such as the Captain etc down. the ship is being attacked and command has to be established quickly. Trip was in command when Archer and T-Pol were off the Ship.

I suppose in the real Navy things are different, who knows.

[Transwarp]

However, some clerks wore a Combat Infantrymans Badge because they had some training

I think you mean the Expert Infantyman Badge. There's a test you take to earn that. The CIB is awarded for actually participating in combat in an infantry unit.

I think under normal circumstances Trip would still be second highest ranking officer on board and the FO by default.

Only in Star Trek would the chief engineer also be the XO. In real life, it would be a Bad Idea. (And, yes, I had Trip as FO of Chosin while simultaneously being ChEng, but at least Graham was responsible for the routine admin aspects of the job. Trip would only have taken command in an emergency.

Usualy the Chain of Command ony becomes important in an Emgergency such as the Captain etc down.

No, the chain of command establishes who you report to and who reports to you for everything (like requesting leave), not just in emergencies. A crewman in Life Support division reports to his section chief who reports to his Division Officer who reports to the Department Head who reports to the FO who reports to the CO.

[aadarshinah]

Speaking of issues of command, throughout ENT is a Lt., but in season 3 we get Major Hayes reporting to him for security issues. Now, in most navies/air forces, an Lt. is an O-3 and a major, in most armies/marine corps, is an O-4. I understand that, as far as shipboard operations would go, this wouldn't matter, but I dimly recall an episode somewhere in the season that specifically had Reed telling Hayes that he outranked him....

Anyway, any thoughts on how this could possibly make sense? Or am I remembering this wrong?