T'Pol and Surak Related?

[WarpGirl]

Hi this had been on my mind for a bit so I thought I would put it out there... I've read a lot of fics out there by many different people that make T'Pol a direct descendant of Surak, sometimes even giving her the title of Queen. Now I have to say I like the idea, but I'm wondering about two things. 1. Where did the idea come up? and 2. Are people descended from Surak actually given titles as T'Pol has been? So I'm looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts. Dif-tor heh smusma

[JadziaKathryn]

Wellll, ST:V, the movie that purportedly even Gene Roddenberry disowned, had Spock's half-brother Sybok, son of Sarek and a Vulcan princess.

Now, if you really think about it, monarchy isn't very logical, because it's rule by genetics, not ability. However, there are some areas where Vulcans like their traditions and all, so I think perhaps a figurehead monarchy could be viable.

As for T'Pol being royalty, I rather doubt it. An influential family, okay, but who's going to let a princess serve on a human ship when you think the immature humans might get said ship blown up at any given moment? Who'd send a princess to work for the Vulcan CIA? Even if your monarch is a figurehead, it's not logical. There's risk of capture or death and it just doesn't make any sense. Especially seeing as T'Pol is an only child.

[Elessar]

Hi this had been on my mind for a bit so I thought I would put it out there... I've read a lot of fics out there by many different people that make T'Pol a direct descendant of Surak, sometimes even giving her the title of Queen. Now I have to say I like the idea, but I'm wondering about two things. 1. Where did the idea come up? and 2. Are people descended from Surak actually given titles as T'Pol has been? So I'm looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts. Dif-tor heh smusma

Yeah, you saw this in YMAM1, no doubt.

Early on, I intended for this to be sort of a driving force behind their trials & tribulations w/ the Romulans, but as the more core points about their relationship, their struggles to have a child, their involvements in the war, came to the forefront of the story I wanted to tell, I kind of let this slide into the background.

Tell you what, I was far more interested, an remain far more interested, in the fact that Solkar is (in my construction) a descendant of Surak, than for T'Pol to be. To me, unless you're going to go off and write a big long series or suggest a big long series of events in which T'Pol becomes like a serious influence on Vulcan ideological thought and basiaclly grabs onto that Surakian heritage, I don't think that it does a lot in terms of literary interest to suggest that. But, on the other hand, it just fits Solkar like a glove.

Now, let me say something about my opinion on the concept of Vulcan royalty. I wouldn't consider royalty in Vulcan society to be the same as ours. I think that royalty is something you could very well have seen in the past in Vulcan, or at least a sense of status around certain families, whether they be as a result of association to Surak, or some other important figurehead, but IMO it's kind of a cultural constant as opposed to a human constant. Even though it's illogical, we accede and accept that Vulcans had an illogical past, I think it makes sense to suggest that some kind of feudal or monarchy like system once existed. They have such an obsession and love for their traditions that I could see some holdovers lasting a little bit longer. By TNG's time, maybe even late TOS time, they are fading out. Let's not forget how regal T'Pau or whoever the "Priestess" (another very archaically descriptive title for someone) is supposed to be in TSFS.

Now, in terms of what kind of status say, for instance, Solkar would have because he's a descendant of Surak, or what T'Pol would have, I don't think it is the same as our sense of royalty. This is a kind of Buddhist type royalty, or, this is a stretch, but sort of the way Saudis feel about themselves in the Muslim world. I don't want to overstep or insult anyone's religion or culture in any way, but I am told by muslim friends of mine (who are non saudis) that the Saudis are very... proud, and possessive of Islam in the sense that there are still families in existence that draw lineage to strong figureheads in the Islamic religion, even the prophet Muhammed. They feel connected to it, and even feel like they "own it" more than non-Saudi muslims, in a way that has to do with feeling like they've lived there and been a part of its history since the beginning. By the way, that's not actually the House of Saud, at least I don't think so. Not necessarily. In other words, what I'm driving at is, I see the whole "descendant of Surak" thing as a kind of honor title, not something that would grant someone a bunch of palaces and wealth and power and political position. It would be more like being the Dalai Lama.

That is, if by happenstance, people came to know about it. Naturally, you can imagine that to Vulcans it is not something they would celebrate. It may even be something they would keep secret, as I suggested in my story, how basically Solkar kind of saw how the Romulan Empire was coming after Vulcan society and the Alpha Quadrant, how they were harboring a long term grudge, and that maybe it wasn't the best idea for them to know who he was and where-and-in-whom some of the oldest knowledge passed down from Surak resided.

[WarpGirl]

Hey I loved what you said about the Dali Lama. As a Clive Cussler fan I got the reference right away. BTW I highly recommend "The Golden Buddha" to anyone who loves a well-written action story with amazing characters. And I can totally see how Surak's family could compare. I wasn't thinking in terms of a western monarchy anyway. Oh and Elassar while it is true I did read YMAM yours was not the first fic I encountered with the premise. Like I said, I love the idea I was just curious as to how it started and if they really had titles for Surak's descendants?

[Elessar]

Hey I loved what you said about the Dali Lama. As a Clive Cussler fan I got the reference right away. BTW I highly recommend "The Golden Buddha" to anyone who loves a well-written action story with amazing characters. And I can totally see how Surak's family could compare. I wasn't thinking in terms of a western monarchy anyway. Oh and Elassar while it is true I did read YMAM yours was not the first fic I encountered with the premise. Like I said, I love the idea I was just curious as to how it started and if they really had titles for Surak's descendants?

Oh sorry I missed that question, that's one I don't think I can answer.

Was "Syran" actually considered a descendant, or just a follower?

[WarpGirl]

I believe Syran was a follower. But I haven't seen the "Vulcan Arc" yet.

[JadziaKathryn]

I think Kevin's "New World Man" series had T'Pol as Vulcan royalty, descended from Surak.

[WarpGirl]

Yes it did, maybe that was the first time I saw it. I'm not sure, I wonder where he got the idea.

[Asso]

I think he is more romantic than me.

[Linda]

I never got the impression T'Pol was a descendant of Surak, but I got the impression that T'Pau was. And it didn't seem T'Pol was related to T'Pau, only that T'Les was a follower of Syran like T'Pau was and that T'Les and T'Pau met at the Vulcan Science Academy. Syran's relationship to Surak was as the discoverer of Surak's katra container and took the katra into his own mind - but no genetic relation to Surak. At least that is what I gathered from the Vulcan arc.

[WarpGirl]

If I remember right T'Pau is matriarch of Surak's clan by the time of TOS. But who knows she might have been related through marriage.

[michelle]

i never liked the idea that T'Pol was related to Surak or Sarek.

Just never felt right, i do fancy the idea of her decending from a warrior Vulcan Clan leader during the time of Surak. In an AU story i read she was a Princess and I liked that idea.

[WarpGirl]

Well all Vulcan Clans were warrior clans at one time even Surak's that's kind of the point.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Isn't there a TV/movie trope that says everybody must somehow be related to each other? T'Pol a descendant of Surak and a member of Sarek and T'Pau's family. Travis a grandfather of Uhura. Hoshi a grandmother of Sulu. I think I've even seen Malcolm (?) related to Amanda Grayson.

I guess I just don't see the point, or need, for this. Why can't characters be interesting and important in their own right without this dynastic lineage?

[WarpGirl]

I thought you started it in "New World Man." Is that another Kevin?