"The Abomination"

[Aquarius]

*shrug* You saw T'Pol's back, and Hoshi covered herself. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. Personally I think partial nudity (or even full, for that matter) is much less of a bad thing than people getting shot up week to week.

Not that I'm directing this at you personally, because I don't mean it that way, but I think it's a sad commentary on our society that in general, people will more often complain about sex and nudity on TV--sex being a perfectly healthy human function and body parts being pretty universal among each respective gender--than they seem to about violence. No hard facts about this subject, just anecdotal observation.

ETA: wow, I said "personally" a lot there. Sorry, got a big three hours of sleep last night.

[WarpGirl]

Trust me violence isn't any good in my opinion either. I just noticed that T'Pol is topless and they origionally was going to show her bare backside as well... Did they do that with Archer, Trip, Malcolm, or Travis? NO! Not fair I say. Back to *the_abomination*... Why oh why did they make Shran an idiot and a crook? HELLO! This is a man who values personal and professional honor. IT MAKES NO SENSE! <growls>

[Aquarius]

Well of COURSE I wouldn't mind if Trip's butt got equal time! You'll never hear me complain about that. I guess the difference is, the absence of his doesn't make seeing the top of T'Pol's crack any bigger of a deal to me.

Shran...well, the only thing I can say about that is that they obviously had their heads up their butts about that one, as they did with the entire rest of the episode.

[WarpGirl]

Well I did like seeing Will and Deanna. But they were the most awsome ever to a 3yr old. And it stuck all these years later, (I am not old, I am not old.)

[Aquarius]

See, I felt that Will and Deanna had absolutely no business being there. What they did, in effect, was make this a Next Generation episode, which for me went equally as far in diminishing this as an Enterprise story as writing everything all crunked up and out of character did. Seriously? THIS IS THE GRAND FINALE!! Why the hell am I supposed to care about Wil Riker's problem from 200 years into the future? Sorry, but no matter how much I like the TNG characters, their appearance in the Enterprise finale just gave it the appearance of a cobbled-together piece of bullcrap. If I saw that in a piece of fanfic, I'd have to say "WTF???", especially if it was as poorly-told.

What I wanted and what the show deserved was a full-on ENTERPRISE story, to give us a sense of closure on ENTERPRISE, not cheapening it by making it about another show altogether.

[Silverbullet]

I wonder if there are many who have eached thier teens that have not seen the opposite Sex totally naked. "I will show you mine if you show me yours."

Any teen aged male who has not seen female breasts has been severely sheltered. If not in the flesh then in photos.

Show bare breasts including nipple? If it really was an integral part of the action and was necessary. Otherwise no.

Cannot see any time that would be necessary unlless in the Seduction scene showing TnT in bed with the covers off Or if they allowed TnT to have an ongoing intimate relationship and the two were on occasion shown in bed with the covers off. Not likely.

You know in Sweden Violence is heavily censored and nudity is freely shown.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

You know in Sweden Violence is heavily censored and nudity is freely shown.

Nope! And as a Swede I should know. We don't censor violence. It was decades since we seriously cut violence in movies. But we're probably more laid back when it comes to nudity in film and TV, although this "Swedish sin" is vastly exaggerated by foreigners. In many cases we can be quite prudish, especially when it comes to "sexualization" in advertising.

Speaking ENT nudity. If the decon scenes had been realistic they would have to strip naked before the administered that gel all over the place.

[Alelou]

Just keep repeating to yourself: "Terra Prime" was the true finale of Enterprise. "Terra Prime" was the true finale of Enterprise. In which case, you know, I think they finished it pretty nicely for us. I could have used more than hand-holding, but at least we got hand-holding.

[WarpGirl]

I didn't think Will and Deanna made a good episode, I just like seeing them. And KTR is right I would have accepted the decon if they were stark naked because form a medical point of view it would make sense. Ironically the underoos made it sexual. Anyway you said it yourself Aquarius it's a holo program. But I do think they set it in the absolute worst time they could have thought of. It would have been slightly more acceptable if this had been set after "Nemesis." That idea was just swill. Then again I still think "Regeneration" is worse, because that was NOT a holo.

[Silverbullet]

My apologies KTR. Last time I looked a few decades ago. Sweden censored Violence.
Of course Sweden had cradle to grave socialism and the gavernment played nanny to everyone not allowing them to do anything that seemed to be fun.

Changed obviously.

Yes, I agree Terra Prime was the real end of the Enterprise show.

[WarpGirl]

I would have liked it better if they had made some hints that Masaro was being evil for a while before the two-parter. I mean the sudden revelation that evil xeniphobes had created little Elizabeth was quite unexpected. Granted in "Home" we do see the rampant prjudice plaguing Earth, but if Terra Prime had been mentioned and their actions forshadowed it would have made for a richer story. But hey I've only really appreciated 6 out of the 45 or so episodes I've seen. Don't get me wrong some are a passing grade but only the Vulcan and Andorian Arcs have made me say WOW!

[Aquarius]

Okay, I thought we had a thread specifically about Trip's education, but I can't find it. The discussion may have happened here, though, because it's one of the things that bugs us most about *the_abomination*, when Hoshi says that bit about Trip learned his craft by working on boat engines.

As I said in another thread, my BFF and I were having an Enterprise mini-marathon, and we watched from "Broken Bow" through "Terra Nova." I can't remember which episode it is now, but during one of them he mentioned he'd been in Starfleet for 20 years. I remembered reading somewhere that Trip was supposed to be about 36 when he became chief engineer of the Enterprise--meaning he'd been in Starfleet since he was 16 or 17--allowing for the fact that most people aren't so precise as to have said something like "nineteen and a half years" in a situation like that.

So now, it all makes perfect sense to me. Starfleet maybe recruited Trip right out of high school. He may not even have graduated, if we assume the school system 100 years from now is like ours--he may have taken a GED or something like that in order to get out early and meet Starfleet's minimum requirements, or if he was smart and got good grades, he may even have skipped a grade here or there and graduated early. And yeah, he may have taught himself basic mechanics by messing with boat engines. We may further assume Starfleet gave him an aptitude test--found out that he has an interest and skill with taking things apart, but he's also too bright and too good with people to be wasted in the motor pool; *they* train him to be an engineer, and put him through officer's training.

Any way, having been reintroduced to that piece of information, I'm now totally okay with the idea that he started out as a motorhead, and while the implication that he didn't have a college education was kind of a slam that shouldn't have been one--and, correct me if I'm wrong because I have no personal experience with this, but don't our modern-day military academies give you the equivalent of a college education as part of the officers training? At any rate, it would seem to me perfectly acceptable if Starfleet had trained him to become an engineer, and he's no less "educated" just because a military-ish academy wouldn't have made Trip waste time with crap like Music Appreciation or Badminton or any of the other crazy classes that frustrates most college students because they have absolutely nothing to do with what they want to do in their chosen careers.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else?

[honeybee]

Yes, one could easily believe that Starfleet, while it officially didn't have an academy, gave Trip officer's training that was the equivalent of going to Annapolis or something - or could have sent him to Cal Tech or MIT for training. If he was a prodigy, he could have not felt the degree was necessary and simply took the courses he needed.

When my Grandfather was in the Navy during WWII - he spent a semester at Harvard doing language training that he would need in the Philippines.

[Silverbullet]

Aqaurius. I have always taken the position that Trip had a very good University level education. He worked on Warp Drives he had to understand a lot of things other than the mechanics of an Engine working.

He would need to know higher mathematics, quantum Physics, and mechanics. Relativity, Newtonian Physics. Those would be essential to an engine that warps space and Time.

The writers of Enterprise, like in so many other things on the show, didn't understand what would go into a Chief Engineer on a warp drive. They just threw out whatever fit at the time or just threw itout becuse they were too lazy to reerach or think.

Trip certainly had to go to University. He could not be a college drop out or llearn Warp field theory and warp drives fixing Boat Engines.

[Rigil Kent]

correct me if I'm wrong because I have no personal experience with this, but don't our modern-day military academies give you the equivalent of a college education as part of the officers training?

Modern US military forces require their officers to have at least a bachelor's degree or greater depending upon their job (i.e., chief engineer of a nuclear-power ship requires a masters, I think, at the very least.) If he attended "Starfleet Training" as implied, which I think both Hoshi & Reed alluded to lasting three to four years, then that would be the equivalent of a bachelor's, I'd think. It'd be the equivalent of him attending West Point or Annapolis, but for Starfleet.

I've established in most of my writings that he attended the University of Florida (Go Gators!) both because I simply like the idea of Trip having gone to the Swamp, and because I recall reading they had one of the better engineering programs in the region (obviously, it's changed a little bit since now, but it's all good, right?) My thinking is that he graduated high school early, likely on an account of having skipped a grade or two (being a genius and all), then effectively joined Starfleet who put him through UF (sort of like a ROTC course), which still tracks with the "joined around 17 or so.