T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[Aquarius]

It seems some clarification is needed about my last post.

First, I want to apologize publicly to Linda for any impression I may have given that she is the reason I asked that we not discuss who was being mean to whom any more. I just highlighted that portion of her post so it would be clear what part of it I was responding to, and to point out that Eian was not the originator of the phrase in question, NOT to say that she did anything wrong. It seems that in my efforts to be more clear, I actually accomplished the opposite. My bad, and I'm sorry. I'll be the first one to admit that's not cool.

Second, I want to be very clear that I'm not taking any kind of admin-y action here. Nothing specifically against the rules happened, so there's nothing TO do. I am an admin, yes, but that does not mean I have to recuse myself from participation in the discussions. That is why, in my last post, I spoke as a "private citizen" first, because I participate here more actively than most of the other admins, if not all of them, so yes, sometimes what goes on here affects me as a fellow poster, but not as an admin. My initial remarks in that post fall under that umbrella.

-however-

Sometimes as I'm participating, the admin-y part of me looks at something and says "Okay you know what? This could get really awkward (or ugly) if it goes much further. Might be a good idea to ask everyone to stop that particular aspect of things..." Hence the second part of my post, as Aquarius the admin, asking that everyone, myself included, redirect that aspect of the discussion. And I furthermore asked that any offensive posts be reported to an admin rather than be dealt with publicly because A) it has to stop somewhere, and B) I wanted everyone to know that yes, they have recourse if someone is bothering them, that I'm not trying to shut anyone down; I just wanted complaints redirected through proper channels because I thought that would be better for the discussion in question in the long run. Perhaps this confused some because I responded as a fellow poster all through the discussion up to that point, but I promise you, if I was power-tripping, I would've said my piece and locked the thread, guaranteeing myself the last word. Rather, the thread has remained open for anyone who wants to discuss the topic and related issues, and I encourage you to do so.

Hope that clears things up. If not, I welcome your questions in my PM box. It was with mixed feelings that I further interrupted this discussion with this explanation, but first and foremost I felt Linda deserved a public apology since a misunderstanding occurred because of my public remark. I couldn't allow that misunderstanding to be perpetuated. It seemed only right and fair, and I say that both as a fellow poster and as an admin. I posted the rest of this as an extension of that, in the hopes that if everyone understands where I'm coming from. it'll prevent future misunderstanding. There are no hard feelings on my end, and I hope there aren't any on anyone else's.

So with that, I return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Silverbullet]

If I may. It depends largely on who writes the History. It has been said that "History is written by the Victors." Or as Winston Churchill said "History will be kind to me because I shall write it"

Today, much of what I was taught as History as a boy is being oveturned. The founding fathers have grown feet of clay. Manifest Destiney was wrong. Lots of things that I learned is now considered wrong. Same with ancient History. European, middle east and Asian. History really is NOT static. It too changes. "Those who do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it." But a changing History makes that statement suspect. Obviously Mankind does not learn from History. We still have Wars, Men who are power Hungry, dictators. False leaders and Prophets that are followed.

so why Not Vulcan istory. What happens in t-Pol's lifetime can be distored by later ages of Vulcans. Warpgirl basing a past character on Vulcan future History beliefs can be dangerous.

[Dinah]

I could be wrong about this, but I thought T'Pol's ability to be somewhat flexible in her thinking was seen as one of the primary reasons she was able to last more than a couple of days on a Human ship. For some, I suppose "rebel" could have negative connotations. She was willing to embrace change. She was also open to new possibilities, including such sensitive issues as time travel and inter-species relationships.

As for the past being judged by today's standards, I personally find it appalling that Mark Twain's books could be banned from the shelves in some libraries because several words he used are no longer politically correct. We are all a product of the environments and cultures in which we live. And as we've seen time and time again, things change: what is acceptable today may be viewed as unacceptable fifty years from now.

T'Pol, Spock, and Tuvok are all Vulcans, but they are all individuals with some of the personality quirks that come with a razor-sharp intellect, a healthy dose of personal integrity, and a certain amount of curiosity. They also come from a society that is constantly evolving. We accept that humanity has progressed from the time of Cochrane to TNG ("First Contact" certainly made that clear), so why wouldn't Vulcans?

If T'Pol was a Vulcan's Vulcan, she wouldn't have lasted one day on Enterprise and the show would have been far less interesting as a result of it.

[Linda]

I am sorry and must apologize too for overreacting and thinking I was messing up this thread. Probably a personality quirk which makes me think if anything goes wrong, it is always my fault.

Since the thread is still open (I had mistakenly thought it was closed), I will venture another comment. I like Silverbullet's comment that history is not static. Neither is culture. And the past gets reinterpreted through the eyes of people who think differently than their ancestors. We can never fully understand what it was like to live through an era which has past, no matter how much we study it. As my dad said, I could not fully understand the Great Depression he lived through in the 1930's. So T'Pol's actions would probably be interpreted differently in the future than by those who were her contemporaries. And I think that history moves forward, not backward, even if some things seem to repeat. People live in their own time periods and should not be judged out of that context.

I like Dina's summary of general Vulcan cultural traits: "they are all individuals with some of the personality quirks that come with a razor-sharp intellect, a healthy dose of personal integrity, and a certain amount of curiosity".

[Silverbullet]

I have been thinking about History and the possible scientific progress in T-Pol's, and Trip's, if he lived long enough, lifetime. How much progress in a lifetime? consider this:

Patrick Gauss , the oldest member of the Lewis and Clark Expedition lived to just shy of one hundred. None of the following had been invented by the end of the Expedition but Gauss lived to see all of them.

The Railroad, the Steamboat, the Telegraph, Photography, the cartrige bullet, The Revolver, the Repeating rifle, the trans atlatic cable, the completion of the contiinental raillroad. (He could have traveled from St. Louis to the Pacific Coast and back in three weeks instead of the two years it took the expeiditon to cover that distance.) He missed the Telephone by 17 years. That is a lot of pregress in one man's life time. What progess could have been made in T-Pol's life time? Would T-Pol and her era be thought of as primitative. would her future ancestors wonder why her time would think that falling in love with and possibly marrying a Human extradorinary. Progress, Photon toorpedos, shielding, reliable Transporters. All possible in T-Pol's lifetime.

[honeybee]

I actually liked that the Vulcans and Humans weren't on the best of terms in the beginning of ENT - it gave the show something to work toward - the alliance we saw in TOS. Lots of changes can happen in a century, and it was fair that they allowed for that. Then, the Vulcan Arc explained some of the differences by way of "correction" - but it never struck me as odd that there would be differences in TOS and what went on in ENT.

The Vulcans probably change less quickly than human society, but they surely must evolve and change and trend in different ways over time.

[Asso]

I actually liked that the Vulcans and Humans weren't on the best of terms in the beginning of ENT - it gave the show something to work toward - the alliance we saw in TOS. Lots of changes can happen in a century, and it was fair that they allowed for that. Then, the Vulcan Arc explained some of the differences by way of "correction" - but it never struck me as odd that there would be differences in TOS and what went on in ENT.

The Vulcans probably change less quickly than human society, but they surely must evolve and change and trend in different ways over time.

I agree with your points.
Actually, we have to chase away from our minds that Vulcan society is static. Definitely the need to suppress emotions is a tremendous debarment to allow Vulcans to go ahead quickly, but, once in a while, I'm sure that emotions appear on the surface, so that they can change, at least a tiny bit.
And then... they have met Humans, haven't they?

[Escriba]

Well, we don't change as fast as we think When there is a technical revolution, the thinking needs quite a time to adapt. Think in Japan, that went from feudalism to modern age in 50 years, but most of the traditions continued. It's difficult to change that. In Vulcans it appears it's longer because their lives are longer, and their generations are longer too.

[Asso]

Mh, no, Escriba.
I'm sorry, but I didn't want to say that traditions can't coexist with changes. It's just the contrary, because changes have their roots in traditions.
Simply, once again - and I beg people's pardon if I sound insisting - I meant that progress without the emotions' spur is a vain hope.
If you think well about Surak, and about the changes he made in Vulcan society, you can't be sure that, behind his teaching, it wasn't hidden the emotional need for a strong change.
Then... you have the right to think all you want to think, but...
First: Soval said that Vulcans are frightened because of Humans' progress rapidity (and if Soval spoke...)
Second: honestly Humans go ahead quickly ( toward where, this is another thing ).

[Escriba]

Mmmm, no, Asso What I meant is that my grandma's thinking and my thinking are different because we're from different generations and when you've grown up with a way of thinking is very difficult to change it, no matter how important the technical changes are. Vulcan generations are longer.

[Asso]

Ah, I understood.
We are talking about two different things.
Well, as for mind changes, I agree with you, but, pay attention: are you sure that, in this matter, any changes have happened?
The way we approach life and world is one thing, but our deep KATRA is different, I think.

[Escriba]

Ah, I understood.
We are talking about two different things.

That happens a lot with us, doesn't it?

[Asso]

Not only with us, don'y you think?