Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[crystalswolf]

Wow, this thread just took off!

It's curious as to why she didn't try to break off the engagement beforehand, the way T'Pol did, but perhaps she did succumb to social pressure. Or perhaps she is just cold and thought the challenge was the easiest way to get rid of Spock.

I'd thought about that too. I'd imaged a few scenarios but the one that seems most likely is that she expected to have more time but didn't thanks to Spock's relatively early pon-farr (37). Also there's the possibility that she'd just started a relationship with Stonn and didn't have the time to change things with Spock before his first pon-farr.

SB, here's a chilling thought. Perhaps the reason why they form the bond at such a young age is because the Vulcan brain is still developing and they manipulate it to "want" their betrothed. I think I got a shiver just thinking about that one.

I think I'll keep to the idea that it's to ensure the needs of a freakishly young pon-farr (early twenties) will be provided for, but sadly it still doesn't cut it.

[Aquarius]

I buy T'Pring being blindsided by timing...but is there anything canon that says when the first onset of pon farr usually is? And I don't recall a canon reference to Spock's age.

[crystalswolf]

Memory Alpha, the years. Amok Time happened in 2267 and Spock was born in 2230. Although the typical age for pon-farr is anyone's guess.

[Enerdhil]

Memory Alpha, the years. Amok Time happened in 2267 and Spock was born in 2230. Although the typical age for pon-farr is anyone's guess.

In "The Search for Spock" Saavik says it occurs each seven years, starting about 7 years old. That means Spock's Amok Time pon-farr was the fifth on the series...

[crystalswolf]

I remember the every 7 yrs part. I don't remember the "starting at 7" part. If so

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, distance concerning the Bond is puzzling. T'Pol was in her Quarters on the Enterprise meditating in her White room when Trip appeared in it. That meant the Bond had linked their two minds. He was on Columbia at the time she on Enterprise. They were at least one light year apart. That is a little over 6 Trillion miles. Considerable distance. To link minds over that distance the Bond would have to be powerful. Never could undestand why T'Pol didn't realize they had been linked. Not a dream because she told Trip to Hop it and he said you go this is my day dream. She should have known that what she was seeing could not be a dream. who knows, maybe her mind rejected that concept of a Bond and it linking thier two minds over that distance.

CW, like you idea that the Childrens minds would not be developed and could be manipulated to accept the betrothal. But that makes it even worse. Slavery in a way. Child has no defense against the manipulation and no choice at all. Wondered too, if the Betrothal could not have been used by some Parents to further thier goals. Do a little political or Ecnomic Log rolling. Enhancing their social status. Children could be pawns. In a male dominated society this is all too possible.

[aadarshinah]

I see it fairly easy to see why T'Pol took so long to come to the bond conclusion. After all, it's like a fairy tale, and if, I dunno, a woman in a tulle dress suddenly appeared next to me, waving a wand, and wanting to grant all my wishes, I'm more likely to believe that I'm imagining things or dreaming than I really have a fairy godmother. Bond and fairy godmother not exactly the same thing, I know, but on about the same level of "truth" as far as Vulcans are conserned.

[honeybee]

There's some canon contradiction about when pon farr starts - Amok Time appeared to be Spock's first, but in Search for Spock, the teenage Spock goes through pon farr when he is transforming to an adult.

Spock was said to be in his thirties in TOS, but T'Pol appeared much younger in ENT and was said to be in her 60s and not having gone through pon farr yet.

But they most certainly do not go through it as small children.

[Aquarius]

I wouldn't count STIII teenage Spock's experience as typical or representative of what happens to other Vulcans. Since his growth was accelerated to such a degree because of Genesis, it's easy to imagine that some biological functions would be happening "off-time" not only due to his half-human nature, but also because of the compressed amount of time everything was happening in.

ETA: I don't necessarily count Memory Alpha as gospel either, as it draws a lot of its information from sources that are "official"--meaning that they were legally licensed by Paramount--but did not occur on screen. It's a useful resource and I run with what it says in situations where I basically agree and don't necessarily have time/inclination/whatever to reinvent the wheel so to speak, but if I don't agree, I don't feel obligated to follow what it says about information that was not given on-screen.

[honeybee]

Very true. Between the genesis and the half-human thing - there's certainly wiggle room there. It's also possible that Vulcans have some way - say through meditation - to put off pon farr's onset. Spock during genesis would not have had that option.

[Aquarius]

Very true. Between the genesis and the half-human thing - there's certainly wiggle room there. It's also possible that Vulcans have some way - say through meditation - to put off pon farr's onset. Spock during genesis would not have had that option.

It's also possible that other coming-of-age rituals on Vulcan would somehow affect the onset of pon farr. There may be biological reasons as well as tradition for what they do, when they do it. Without being taken through the steps in the proper order at the proper stages of development, that may have messed up teenage Spock, too.

[panyasan]

Also young Vulcans haven't developed their emotional control yet (nor enough meditation techniques) and would be experiencing at that age a very strong adult desire as Pon Farr.
On Earth girl were giving into marriage after the age of 12, which it not only the age when a girl is able to have childern, but also the age when she can make a decision. In early days, being older then 12 years olds meant you're seen as an adult. The life span was different: lots of people didn't made it till 50.
I always had the feeling that Vulcan matured slower then Humans, so that Pon Farr would start at a "older" age (from a Human point of view). So I agree Spocks Human biology (and the circumstances) may have something to do with him having Pon Farr earlier then most Vulcans.

[pdsldl]

In Bounty T'Pol said it wasn't time yet for her to be in Pon Farr. And with Spock being half human it seems reasonable to assume that there were hormones etc... at work in his system that would mess with any normal timetable. Didn't he say they thought he might be spared the whole ordeal because of his human half.

Securing a mate early on due to Pon Farr must seem a reasonable thing to do for Vulcan parents especially since death is the result of not having a mate. Can't see the betrothal as being a way to manipulate them into bonding as T'Pol wasn't concerned with breaking her betrothal with Koss. A connection that was to bring their mind together would have to have some repercussions if broken after so many years. From what T'Les and Koss said it hadn't been broken but a bond was the furthest thing from T'Pol's mind when she married Koss as she went to great lengths to avoid it. To me it shows that Vulcans were not automatons and had free will if they chose to exert it. T'Pol did. T'Pring did and Spock did so parents best laid plans didn't always come to fruition.

[crystalswolf]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't take Memory Alpha as the last word. Usually with the info given I look for a quote or ep to go with the info so if I have the time I can look it up for myself. But I have noticed that on the right side of the pages are the dates when they have been specifically stated in the episode as dates (Ent) or stardates (all others).

Although Spock's actual DoB is not official (apparently a deleted scene from the first Movie), Memory Alpha notes how TAS mentions Spock at 7 in the year 2237. Since I've never seen TAS, I can't verify this but I would guess that it cannot be that far off because of the description of the ep and the age he was drawn as.

Personally, I like the idea that the first pon-farr has a range, much like menstruation for human women, but with their long lives they have a much wider range. Something like 20's - 80's. When Copperhead commented on my story Let'thieri that Sivon would have been 26 during his first pon-farr, even though I didn't originally intend for him to be so young, I didn't really have a problem with it. Vulcans could have seen it as a natural situation even though he was on the young side of the range. We tend to think the same way about a girl starting her menstrual cycle at 9.

[Enerdhil]

In Bounty T'Pol said it wasn't time yet for her to be in Pon Farr.

For what I perceived, several people use that to assume T'Pol was still to go on her first pon-farr. It is not easier to think that she had others pon-farr's before, but the seven year period didn't match the one displayed in Bounty?