The Vulcan Heart

[Asso]

Amen? Okay.

[WarpGirl]

OK I wasn't sure if I could state my opinion on these two very hot subjects without upsetting anyone. But I am willing to try. Please remember I am not responding to one person. This is just how I veiw the entirety of the two subjects at hand.

Arranged marriges, they can be good or bad just like 99.99999999999999% of sociological customs AROUND THE ENTIRE WORLD. And it's important to remember that Americans arranged marriges well into the 20th century. Families like the Vanderbuilts and Astors did it with alarming frequency. But in the early days of this country it was practiced by elite and common alike. So judging other cultures is pretty much pointless. Western Civilization has done it since its dawn. As for the arguement that arranged marriages are sexist, well yeah they can be but more often than not the man has little or no choice in his bride just as the bride has little or no choice in the husband. As Escriba and I have both pointed out an arranged marriage is NOT A FORCED MARRIAGE. There is a difference and nobody likes to remember it because of our modern morals.

As to what this means for Vulcan society, there is no evidence that the custom is sexist. As the boys have no choice in who their families picked. And the marriages are not forced. There is some social censure comparable to a man or woman leaving their intended at the alter. Which lets face it is emberrassing to the regected party.

In T'Pol's case the wedding (it was not a true marrige because it was not consumated and no bond was formed) was not forced. T'Pol could have left Vulcan. She chose not to because she loved her mother. And I don't believe she thought the situation was HER FAULT. But she couldn't change the fact that the VHC used that reason to pursecute her mother. So she is not an idiot.

As for Pon Farr... Two Canon sources contradict Vulcan women going through it. The first is Search For Spock Saavik says Vulcan MALES must endure it every seventh year of their adult life if all Vulcans experience Pon Farr the gender distinction is POINTLESS. Also T'Pring Spock's betrothed in Amok Time should have been going through the cycle. SHE WAS NOT!

The second source is the VOY episode Blood Fever. Tuvok explains that a Vulcan male melds with his chosen or arranged mate to stimulate the fever in his mate. So Female Vulcans don't have Pon Farr. I'm sorry. Now as for the biological reasons for this, I agree with Alelou a Vulcan woman would need to be discreet with whom she chose to mate. Especially before the time of Surak. She can't choose wisely if she's crazy with Plak Tau. But like Honeybee I don't think the intital onset of Pon Farr robs a Vulcan of clear thinking ability. So it's never rape, a man can choose a woman and she can accept.

Now as for T'Pol's Pon Farr I believe it was chemically induced by the Suliban. The drugs they gave her did what a bonding meld would do if a Vulcan Male had chosen her to relieve his Pon Farr. But since she had no bond she had to find anyone willing to help her. But I don't agree with Aquarius that an unbonded woman could go through this. It would not have happened without the drugs the Suliban gave her. As for the MU Pon Farr it was never said how T'Pol's Pon Farr came about. Maybe Forrest gave her drugs so she would seduce Trip. Maybe she had been bonded to Koss before capture and she reacted to his Cycle. Both are very plausible. In any case I don't like female Pon Farr, I never will.

[Ludmila]

I do not like Pon Farr at all but I accept this idea and am usually free for any interpretations which fanfic writers give me.

Two Canon sources contradict Vulcan women going through it. The first is Search For Spock Saavik says Vulcan MALES must endure it every seventh year of their adult life if all Vulcans experience Pon Farr the gender distinction is POINTLESS.

But it is plausible to imagine as the confirmation of the notion of Aquarius or as the reference that the female have some different cycle (not 7 years).

And I like your hypothesis, WarpGirl, about Suliban's intervention in "Bounty". The more suggestions the more good stories can appear, I suppose.

[WarpGirl]

Perhaps but there has NEVER EVER been any hint, in any of the Treks, that a Vulcan woman has a cycle of Pon Farr or would die from Plak Tau. Perhaps in the future there will be an explanation. However for now nothing canon exists. The MU is canon yes, BUT again there are a myriad of possibilities that could conclude that the so-called Pon Farr was artificial. Or she could have faked it. And in the Bounty episode it flat out said T'Pol's Pon Farr is artificial.

[Aquarius]

Perhaps but there has NEVER EVER been any hint, in any of the Treks, that a Vulcan woman has a cycle of Pon Farr or would die from Plak Tau. Perhaps in the future there will be an explanation. However for now nothing canon exists. The MU is canon yes, BUT again there are a myriad of possibilities that could conclude that the so-called Pon Farr was artificial. Or she could have faked it. And in the Bounty episode it flat out said T'Pol's Pon Farr is artificial.

This is valid, WarpGirl, but I maintain that it doesn't invalidate any of the plausible explanations that a female pon farr can exist. Yes, it was triggered artificially in "Bounty." Yes, there are many possibilities of why it happened in the "MU," but that doesn't categorically exclude a natural occurrence. I'm just not satisfied that women are excluded from experiencing it naturally, especially when presented by a capable author. For my own part, I feel that accepting it opens up many more storytelling possibilities, so until TPTB come out and definitively say "female Vulcans do not experience pon farr ever," I'm personally running with it, because that is the only thing that will close off the possibility in my mind forever. If they say so, I'll accept it. Until then, while it may not be "canon" per se, there is still the hint that the subject isn't completely closed. they "contradicted" canon, so as far as I'm concerned that means that there's more to canon (now) than what we were originally told. It's there, I'm gonna play with it.

Bottom line: neither side is going to convince the other until it's declared unequivocally possible or impossible by either another incarnation of Trek or someone in power. 'Til then, as far as I'm concerned, both ways are valid for an author to pursue as they see fit, and the people who write female pon farr stories shouldn't have to feel like their feedback is going to erupt into a debate over whether or not it should even exist.

[WarpGirl]

Well I wasn't just talking about Bounty or MU. I'm talking about 40 odd years of Trek history and there has not been ONE instance of a Vulcan woman having a Pon Farr WITHOUT some type of intervention being it a mate, or an artifical inducement. Again Seach For Spock AND Blood Fever clearly state it's a MALE thing. In Amok Time it is implied STRONGLY. That being said people should write what they want. Thus far there is no clear evidence it exists. When it is canonically proven I will EAT CROW.

[Aquarius]

No one's asking you to eat anything, WarpGirl. Regardless of the "inconsistency," it's there now, and some of us want to use it. And if people don't like reading about it, then they simply shouldn't read it.

[WarpGirl]

I guess I don't understand where "it IS now" Bounty it's artificial. Phlox says so. MU it doesn't explain it. And knowing MU can you trust ANYTHING the characters say when they are playing each other. In the same episode T'Pol admits melding with Trip to make him believe they had sex when she really got hin to sabatouge the ship. So we can't even trust she actually had Pon Farr it could have been a trick.

Where as several Trek Episodes and one movie state it's the MEN who experience Pon Farr. So where is it stated that women have Pon Farr on there own? Please tell me. And I said write what you want.

[Aquarius]

And I said write what you want.

First, the fact that it was artificially induced negates the notion that it doesn't happen in women at all, ever, as is often asserted in these arguments. So, regardless of the stimulus, there it is, a female in blood fever. And where there is an artificial cause, that opens up the possibility for a natural cause, be it a gene found in a small population of women, a hormonal imbalance due to a faulty gland, or other things.

Second, in the MU episode, you are quite correct that they don't say what caused it...so it COULD be artificial, and it just as easily COULD be natural. So for this, there is no proof one way or the other that one side is right or wrong.

So "THERE" it is. And as far as I'm concerned, KTR and Ludmila are arguably the biggest Treksperts here, because whenever someone has a question, they're right there with the answer...and they seem to have acknowledged my theory as plausible, regardless if they personally subscribe to it or not, so that's good enough for me, no matter how fanatical anyone else is about contradicting it.

As I said, there is room for both until something official comes down that says there isn't. No one's asking you to change your mind on what's right for you, and I'm not likely to change mine. Arguing's pretty pointless, especially when it's already been conceded that your way is just as valid as anyone else's.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

And as far as I'm concerned, KTR and Ludmila are arguably the biggest Treksperts here, because whenever someone has a question, they're right there with the answer...and they seem to have acknowledged my theory as plausible, regardless if they personally subscribe to it or not, so that's good enough for me, no matter how fanatical anyone else is about contradicting it.

Well, just to clarify, what I found could be plausible is a "late" female pon farr that might get triggered if an Vulcan female had gone on for a long while without any male triggering it in her. That's the only time I might see a purely female pon farr occuring (I don't count the faux Bounty one). Otherwise, nope!

[honeybee]

In my fics, I've had T'Pol going through Pon Farr (because I connect it with fertility) but in both cases I portrayed it as unusual and a symptom of T'Pol being unbonded. Again, I believe the capacity for female pon farr probably does exist - but if a woman is bonded with a Vulcan male - then her pon farrs would be in concert with his. It's just that I see female pon farr as a kind of biological clock, something she wasn't expecting because she was unbonded but would happen to her if she were, say, bonded with a male that didn't trigger a cycle in her because he was human.

If someone disagrees, that's okay by me. I've just found it a useful plot device.

[Aquarius]

And as far as I'm concerned, KTR and Ludmila are arguably the biggest Treksperts here, because whenever someone has a question, they're right there with the answer...and they seem to have acknowledged my theory as plausible, regardless if they personally subscribe to it or not, so that's good enough for me, no matter how fanatical anyone else is about contradicting it.

Well, just to clarify, what I found could be plausible is a "late" female pon farr that might get triggered if an Vulcan female had gone on for a long while without any male triggering it in her. That's the only time I might see a purely female pon farr occuring (I don't count the faux Bounty one). Otherwise, nope!

Still that was not a complete shut-down. And as human women can experience early menopause, I'm sure the occasional Vulcan can experience early "Oh, sh*t!" pon farr.

[Ludmila]

And as far as I'm concerned, KTR and Ludmila are arguably the biggest Treksperts here, because whenever someone has a question, they're right there with the answer...and they seem to have acknowledged my theory as plausible, regardless if they personally subscribe to it or not, so that's good enough for me, no matter how fanatical anyone else is about contradicting it.

Well, just to clarify, what I found could be plausible is a "late" female pon farr that might get triggered if an Vulcan female had gone on for a long while without any male triggering it in her. That's the only time I might see a purely female pon farr occuring (I don't count the faux Bounty one). Otherwise, nope!

Still that was not a complete shut-down. And as human women can experience early menopause, I'm sure the occasional Vulcan can experience early "Oh, sh*t!" pon farr.

I am Enterprise's fan only and yet plan to watch DS9 and Voyager (though I preferred to buy at first now "Farscape" which I missed before and my DVDs are on their road the whole month or even more).
I think that if Vulcan's race might die away without Pon Farr stimulus then it can be plausible to have its impact on the mature women without mates in their late age as the last attempt to add in gene pool. Though because I prefer supposing that E2 T'Pol did not suffer from it (I admit that justTrip'n gave us quite plausible alternative version in her saga which I enjoyed) I imagine that the delivery of even one child can spare the woman without mate from the late Pon Farrs. I fully agree with Aquarius that any quirks (very rare) can be in that complex situation.
But I repeat that I enjoy practically all variety of the story ideas in that question.
One of my favorite take on that was made by luli27 in her "Moving Forward". It was the sequel to "Last Chance" posted at TriS.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4566894/2/Moving_Forward
The excerpt:

SPOILER!!!:

“Unlike Vulcans,” she began, “Humans know how to control their emotions. They do not repress them but rather embrace them; they know how to live with their emotions –even when they’re in emotional upheaval, they managed to still live productive lives – for the most part. What if Trip,” she paused minutely to look up at the fidgeting Commander, “has been helping me keep control?”
“Hmmm,” Phlox said, thinking. “Interesting theory,” he mused. “But that would only be possible if . . .” he trailed off and then asked out of the blue, “Commanders, are you two sexually active?”
“Phlox!” Trip exclaimed, his face slowly going red. “What's that gotta to do with anything?”
“Mr. Tucker, please,” Phlox said, sighing. “It has everything to do with it. As you know, mating and the desire to procreate is the most basic, strongest primal instinct any species has. Frankly, given how stubborn Vulcans are, I think it is the only instinct that could break through their control,” he said, as an aside, but when confronted with Trip and T’Pol’s frowns, he went back to the topic. “As you also know, the Pon Farr is a culmination of all those repressed instincts coming out.”
“So,” Trip said, frowning in thought. “You’re sayin' that because we’ve been,” he hesitated and rubbed his neck before finally admitting, “sexually active, her instincts haven’t been as repressed, the explosion isn’t as big as it could have been?”
“Well,” Phlox answered slowly, “I’m not sure whether it's any smaller but it certainly seems to have a shorter fuse.”
“So,” Trip concluded, sounding upset. “I’m basically makin' this thing last longer than it has to?”
“Ashayam, don’t look at it that way,” T’Pol told him softly, turning to look at him and placing a hand on his cheek, showing more emotion that Phlox had seen in a long time. “Instead, concentrate on the fact that, without your assistance, these emotions would have already overwhelmed me. It’s because of you that my first Pon Farr will not be as bad as it could be.”
“But if it wasn’t for me,” Trip insisted, feeling dejected, “it’d already be over.”
“Trip,” she told him firmly. “It might be longer, but in the long run it won’t be as traumatic because of you. Please, think of it like that.”
“She’s right,” Phlox agreed. “It might seem counter-intuitive but the fact that the Pon Farr is taking longer to reach critical point means that her body doesn’t have such a hard time dealing with all the changes. As a result, once it is done, she will have experienced far less trauma.”

[WarpGirl]

I never said women don't experience Pon Farr I said they don't experience Pon Farr without a trigger meaning if they don't have a Vulcan Male to meld with (bonded or not) or an artifical trigger like drugs, it won't happen. And according to all canon sources including what we've seen on ENT that's the way it works. If a woman has been triggered by any means YES SHE IS EXPERIENCING Pon Farr but an unbonded or widowed woman who has not found another mate would not experience Pon Farr. That's canon.

[Ludmila]

Canon of the show which frequently contradicts itself is not important thing for me personally. So far the author does not create the gigantic deviation from showed us (for example, that Vulcans has in Star Trek era the Spartan tradition to kill weak children) I'll read her/his stories without evaluating their compliance with canon. That is really important for me is the proper portrayal of my favorite characters.
The author may give me new physiology to human body if some plausible explanation will appear and it will be needed for the story.
IMHO, it is sufficient to enumerate in author's notes all changes to the things recognized by readers and waited by them and he/she will find the audience and no reader will aggravate with unacceptable for him/her.