Could T'Pol really be first officer?

[Silverbullet]

WG Eruope has organized itself. heard of the Europea Union? Grew out of the common market.

Change, sure when I was a boy Japan and Germany were evil and enemies. today they aren't they are our firends and we get along. We found out that the people in those countries were manipulated in the early 40's.

One guy on another board was writing essays analyzing Roddenbery and later Bragga. My eyes crossed reading them I stopped after one or two. He was assuming an awful lot.

We don't really know what roddenbury was thinking. He had an idea for a TV series and he had to mold it in to somethin g that the TV exec's and the audience would accept. Rodddenbury did say he wanted as much reality in Star Trek as possible and still keep it as a Science fiction Series.

As I say, and I agree with what Linda says. Enterprise had to have a base that Viewers could associate themselves with. Personalllly I believe the nosedive it took was because BnB forgot that. I can suspend my disbelief if I hae enough that I can believe. The BEM of the week on SciFi channel does not interst me at all because it is to unrealistic.

One thing that bugs some people is when Physics is ignored. Warp drives could be possible and I would like them to be explained with Quantum phsics. So I get SciFi and reality. The thing about good SciFi is that it anticipates reality. Much of what was Sci Fi in my youth is reality today. Good Scifi writers in the Golden age of Scifi (late 30's early 40's) wrote of things that sounded fantastic but are reality now. robert Heinlein had a visit from the FBI because he had accurately described an Atomic explosion complete with Musroom cloud. He simply said that would be what would happen according to physics. Many of the authors of the golden age were scientists, pyisits, chemists, they knew what they were talking about and tried to put as much reality into their story as they could so the reader had a hook to associae with. ASimov wrote a story in which a man walked around a small asteroid keeping it between him and a spaceship full of badies. Asimov consulted scientsis so he knew how fast the man had to walk in order to do that and he put that in his story. Lots of people who read Scifi and watch it, look for gotcha's. they delight in writeing to the Authors telling them the error of their ways.

That is why it offends me to seee T-Pol as a civilian in season three as FO and in command of Enteprisee. Because I know it woud not happen and I cannot suspend my disbelief that much.

[WarpGirl]

Being "organized" and being under one government is two totally different things. Europe is not under one government, the EU is not the government of the europian continent. And no offense you can't possibly know what will or will not change in 150 years.

[Silverbullet]

They are getting close. They have one currency (NOt alll nations have accepted it) the Euro.
There is the Eureopean Parliment. There has been talk a but a United States of Europe. Problem is getting countries to surrender their sovereingty.

According to theory Matter and anti-Matter cannot meet. It that hapens ther is one hellasious explosion. Depending on the mass it could just blow up a building to a planet. I have often wondered how the Warp drives uses Matter and Anti-matter together You cannot avoid reality there. It has to be explained logically. So the wriers have simply avoided it.

Theory (although it may have changed since I first read it) says that matter cannot exist twice in the same place at the same time. The old T-Pol and the young T-Pol had the same matter. so when they met another explosio would have taken place and with their combined mass would have destoryed both Enteprises. didn't happen. As I say theory may have changed but I doubt it.

If Dinah, Distracted or any other good writers are reading this post. Here is an idea I have been toying with but am not good enough to write a story like this so if anyone wants to take it and run:

Orion syndicate sneaks a Matter-Anti-matter bomb into Earth Orbit. they demand Earths surrender or they will blow Earth out of existance. Eath cannot destroy the bomb beause that would set it off destroying Earth. Earth manages to distract the Orions for a short while,
Trip and T-Pol ae sent on a suicide mission to tow the Bomb to the Ort cloud where they will crash it in to an Asteroid and set if off from a safe distance. This will punch a large hole in the Ort cloud knocking many bjects out of orbit toward the inner planets. TnT have to dodge these and the Coaliton of planets have to destroy them. Lots of action and angst could be put into this but as I say I am not able to write on this level.

[pdsldl]

It may be sexist but I liked that T'Pol was second in command. A woman and an alien (minority) having some power made me happy. I could really care less about following some rules of the real world in my TV shows unless the shows are are meant to be real. And I don't think most (and I know there are some science geeks out there that think it should all be real science) but feasible or at least sounds reasonable is fine. I don't expect ER or the doctor shows to be real but they should sound like they know what they are talking about.

Having a qualified foreigner (alien) in a semi-military organization doesn't seem like a big stretch to me, especially since they made Archer's informal arrangement official when they came back to Earth. Starfleet itself wouldn't be able to function in the real world on so many levels why should T'Pol's being an officer be a big deal?

[WarpGirl]

It doesn't matter if they're close the truth of the matter is europe is not united under one government. And even if it were to work out in the next few decades, South America will never be united under one government, North America will never be united under one government, Asia will never be united under one government, and the Middle East certainly will never be united under one government even with religion. Now can you imagine all of those regions united under one human government, in reality. I don't.

ST is different human society is different. Yeah humanity is relatable but hardly "Real" I don't see world powers with any Prime Directive in this world. All I'm saying is that the only differences you are willing to accept deal with technology, and that wasn'tthe point of ST at all.

pdsldl I like T'Pol as first officer because in the origional concept Gene Rodenberry had to choose between keeping Spock or keeping Majel as "Number 1" he chose (rightly) to keep Spock. But I found it to be poetic justice that T'Pol got the spot. And you are absolutely right. If that makes me sexist, this time I don't mind. Because she was qualified for the job, and did pretty well.

[Distracted]

Orion syndicate sneaks a Matter-Anti-matter bomb into Earth Orbit. they demand Earths surrender or they will blow Earth out of existance. Eath cannot destroy the bomb beause that would set it off destroying Earth. Earth manages to distract the Orions for a short while,
Trip and T-Pol ae sent on a suicide mission to tow the Bomb to the Ort cloud where they will crash it in to an Asteroid and set if off from a safe distance. This will punch a large hole in the Ort cloud knocking many bjects out of orbit toward the inner planets. TnT have to dodge these and the Coaliton of planets have to destroy them. Lots of action and angst could be put into this but as I say I am not able to write on this level.

Oh, I dunno about that, Silverbullet. You'll never know until you try. You know a lot more details about how a military operation like that would work than most people.

[WarpGirl]

Sounds like a Malcolm mission to me. I mean lets face it Trip isn't the one with covert bad*** suicide black-ops abilities. Unless you read oh man what was their name? The series where Trip was a covert bad*** super-spy black-ops guy. Great AU but not the real Trip. Hold on I gotta check the author...DRAGONA is the name, find the series on the web page, it's in the LINKS.

Back to the topic at hand, I figure if "real life" shows like House and ER can pull things out of their hat, nobody should complain too much about any Sci-Fi. Is it nice to have enough reality to make it understandable yes, all good fiction is. But really being open to the impossible is what creates inspiration and change.

[Distracted]

I'm pretty sure the name you're searching for is Drogna.

[WarpGirl]

Me and my spelling, or more accurately the lack there of. When am I going to learn, only copy and paste names, I ALWAYS screw them up.

[Transwarp]

Just a few things. First of all, matter and antimatter as an energy source for Enterprise violates no science I am aware of. The amount of power you get is dependent on the amount of matter/antimatter you annihilate. We could do it today if we could overcome certain engineering issues, such as getting our hands on the antimatter in the first place, and finding a way to safely store it. (Some sort of magnetic containment would probably be the best bet.) I'd love to see inside one of those bottles labeled 'antimatter' that you see on the show--can anyone say 'willing suspension of disbelief'? It's a skill must of us scifi fans learned long ago. [An aside--way off-topic, but it has always bugged me. The most flagrant, egregious, in-your-face, knock-me-down-and-jump-up-and-down-on-me assault on my ability to suspend disbelief was the 'Similitude' episode. When it became clear Sim had Trip's memories, I was completely thrown out of the story by such a stunningly impossible event, and never got all the way back in]

As for towing the antimatter bomb, make sure you explain why simpler solutions, such as transporting it to a safe distance, wouldn't work.

And now back to the main topic; T'Pol as FO:

Society may be different in the show's setting, humanity may have evolved, and Starfleet's rules and regs may be completely unlike any existing military organization (although from what I've seen of all the series, they are not radically different). BUT... organizations of any type are, well, organized. The local PTA (Parent-Teacher Association) has clearly defined officers, much less a Starfleet vessel. This is a constant, whether you go back 200 years or forward 200 years. I cannot believe Enterprise left spacedock without a clearly designated FO. And if the FO was NOT T'Pol (as the dialogue from the episode related by Silverbullet seems to indicate) then the way the show unfolded is impossible, in this universe OR the star trek universe. [But then, these are the same people who gave us Sim.]

HAVING SAID THAT, I believe having T'Pol as FO in the REST of the series is NOT impossible. I can easily imagine circumstances where she could be legally installed in that role, even though she's an officer of a foreign government, or a civilian (in season 3). It would, however, be an official appointment, and everyone on board would be aware of it (even if they didn't like it). Could it happen in the US military today? Hell, no. But as WarpGirl has so adamantly pointed out, Starfleet is not a present-day military organization.

Personally, I will ignore the offending dialogue in the episode as an attack of temporary stupidity on the part of the writers, no doubt brought on by looming deadlines, and accept the Memory Alpha explanation as canon. That's the only way to salvage the episode.

[Transwarp]

But wait, there's more! I forgot to respond to Silverbullet's statement about science dictating that T'Pol and old T'Pol must explode when they meet in the 'E2' episode.

Unless you are postulating that old T'Pol is made of antimatter, how could that happen?

You said something along the lines that two objects can't occupy the same space, which is also puzzling. T'Pol and old T'Pol are clearly occupying two different sets of spatial coordinates.

So I'm completely missing what would cause them to explode. (Perhaps an over-exposure to humans? But then, only their heads would explode...)

[WarpGirl]

OK for the record, I can agree with Transwarp here, I never thought that ENT in general had good writing, maybe a handful of episodes, but the "writers" did stupid things all of the time. And yes making ENT not have a clear chain-of-command in Broken Bow is monumentally stupid. But that has no baring on whether Earth would allow for T'Pol to assume command in an emergency. So I hope some common ground can be reached there.

I have to look up the SG-1 episode where Sam has a problem being from two universes, something about cascade failure, I don't think the E2 universe is the same concept.

[Silverbullet]

Matter Anti-matter. Anti-Matter has been created in a laboratory in a magnetic bottle. It is also contained in the same Magnetic bottle. So, on enterprisee Anti-matter would be contained in a magnetic bottle. The two matter and anti-matter cannot touch. It violates the laws of fphysics. How the matrix is mixed I would love to know but it is not explained on th show.

I said Theory has it that the SME matter I repeat the SAME matter cannot exist twice in the same place at the same time. That too violates physics as I understand it. so, the Old T-Pol and the young T-Pol being made up of the identical matter could not be in the same room as in e2. Ot at least that is how I understand the theory.

Kirk was from Iowa, Picard from france and I believe Danieal was from Illinois which implies that individual countries still existed in the 24th and 31st centuries.

Reed said (and I will have to check on this) in an episode that his father was an Admiral in the Royal Navy. What does that tell us: That Great Britain still exists in the 22nd century, the British royalty still exists in the 22nd century; that individual countries still have their own Military in the 22nd century and that traditional Military still existed in the 22nd century. so it stands to reason that Starfleet would be based on that tradtional miltary. If that is so then Enterprise was a military ship. Based on Earths traditonal Military traditons and rules. T-Pol could not under those rules be FO. Not ever. Enterprise would have an established Chain of command before she came on board. Trip would be the second highest ranking Officer on board and FO and in command when Archer was off the ship. Royal Navy still exists then the Traditional Earth military would still exist and Starfleet would be in that form. Enterprise would be a military ship in the mold of traditional Earth Military or if you will US militray.

Starfleet had Admirals right on down toe recruit enlisted. that is miitary. You cannot have sort of miitary any more than you can be sort of Pregnant. Either you are or you are not and either you are completely military or you are not.

In the series Archer is always yapping ""that is an Order" Reed when eh was fighting Hayes and Travis came up said "As you were Ensign" that is an military officer speaking to a subordinate. In Bound when Reed was escoring the Orion women to thier quarters two men wre ogling the women and Reed said "don't you have anything to do?" that is an Officer saying to a subordinate that if you do not have anything to do I will find something for you to do. that is miltary. Traditional Earth military.

It is the Royal Navy bit that convinces me that Starfleet was a Tradtional military and Enterprise was a military ship and it was using rules and traditions of established Military of Earth and the US. Not some quasi half breed entinty.

[WarpGirl]

Silverbullet The Royal Navy's mission is NOT "To seek out new life and new Civilizations... To bodly go where no man has gone before. That is Starfleet's purpose. How can anyone forget that? How is that a traditional military, unless you're going to tell me that all militaries seek out and explore the known universe, and have been since the begining of militaries. If you are going to tell me that, doing that is what a military is for... I am sorry but I will have to laugh, and disregard it as a major case of wishful thinking. Militaries are created to fight wars, maybe they are defending something, maybe they are conquering something, but their purpose is to fight wars. That is not Starfleet's main purpose, it's a side effect.

[Transwarp]

I said Theory has it that the SME matter I repeat the SAME matter cannot exist twice in the same place at the same time. That too violates physics as I understand it.

Quite true.

so, the Old T-Pol and the young T-Pol being made up of the identical matter could not be in the same room as in e2. Ot at least that is how I understand the theory.

This is where you lose me. As long as they're not occupying the same space, what's the problem? I'm in the same room as other people all the time, but I try to keep a respectful distance from the aforementioned other people. (Where I come from, it is considered rude to attempt to occupy the same place at the same time as someone else!!)

I said Theory has it that the SME matter I repeat the SAME matter cannot exist twice in the same place at the same time. That too violates physics as I understand it.

Quite true.

so, the Old T-Pol and the young T-Pol being made up of the identical matter could not be in the same room as in e2. Ot at least that is how I understand the theory.

This is where you lose me. As long as they're not occupying the same space, what's the problem? I'm in the same room as other people all the time, but I try to keep a respectful distance from the aforementioned other people. (Where I come from, it is considered rude to attempt to occupy the same place at the same time as someone else!!)

But enough of exploding T'Pols. Let us speak of what's REALLY important, here: First Officer T'Pols.

I will concede that Starfleet's structure and organization is distinctly military. Human military, as a matter of fact, sharing many customs and traditions with other military forces. But it's primary focus is exploration, not combat. (For an example of this, look at the Coast Guard. It is a distinctly military organization, but it's not part of the Department of Defence.

So what am I saying? Simply that the Starfleet I've observed over the years in the various series is much more lax than any military organization I've been part of (Electrician's Mate in US Navy; Signal Officer in US Army), which is only to be expected; I mean, how many astrophysicsts and xenobiologists are going to stand for wall-locker inspections? The requirements for a rifle platoon and an exploration vessel are quite different--is it so surprising that the rules and traditions should be different, as well?

BUT there is a core of discipline expected (even of the scientists on board), so if Starfleet, in its bureaucratic wisdom deems that a Vulcan shall be appointed First Officer, entitled to legally exercise the authority of that position, then all hands will be expected to obey her orders as they would any other officer's.

As an officer, I could (and did) delegate my authority to NCOs, to act on my behalf. Under those circumstances, and for that mission, that NCO could tell a a junior officer what to do, because he was speaking for me. The need never arose, but I certainly could have delegated my authority to a civilian, for example a technical representative/subject matter expert for a new communications system. I could say "This civilian is in charge of getting the system up and running. Whatever he tells you needs to be done, you do it."

Boom. The guy is in charge. He's issuing orders, and the soldiers are bound to obey them. And he's a civilian.
But enough of exploding T'Pols. Let us speak of what's REALLY important, here: First Officer T'Pols.

I said Theory has it that the SME matter I repeat the SAME matter cannot exist twice in the same place at the same time. That too violates physics as I understand it.

Quite true.

so, the Old T-Pol and the young T-Pol being made up of the identical matter could not be in the same room as in e2. Ot at least that is how I understand the theory.

This is where you lose me. As long as they're not occupying the same space, what's the problem? I'm in the same room as other people all the time, but I try to keep a respectful distance from the aforementioned other people. (Where I come from, it is considered rude to attempt to occupy the same place at the same time as someone else!!)

But enough of exploding T'Pols. Let us speak of what's REALLY important, here: First Officer T'Pols.

I will concede that Starfleet's structure and organization is distinctly military. Human military, as a matter of fact, sharing many customs and traditions with other military forces. But it's primary focus is exploration, not combat. (For an example of this, look at the Coast Guard. It is a distinctly military organization, but it's not part of the Department of Defence.

So what am I saying? Simply that the Starfleet I've observed over the years in the various series is much more lax than any military organization I've been part of (Electrician's Mate in US Navy; Signal Officer in US Army), which is only to be expected; I mean, how many astrophysicsts and xenobiologists are going to stand for wall-locker inspections? The requirements for a rifle platoon and an exploration vessel are quite different--is it so surprising that the rules and traditions should be different, as well?

BUT there is a core of discipline expected (even of the scientists on board), so if Starfleet, in its bureaucratic wisdom deems that a Vulcan shall be appointed First Officer, entitled to legally exercise the authority of that position, then all hands will be expected to obey her orders as they would any other officer's.

As an officer, I could (and did) delegate my authority to NCOs, to act on my behalf. Under those circumstances, and for that mission, that NCO could tell a a junior officer what to do, because he was speaking for me. The need never arose, but I certainly could have delegated my authority to a civilian, for example a technical representative/subject matter expert for a new communications system. I could say "This civilian is in charge of getting the system up and running. Whatever he tells you needs to be done, you do it."

Boom. Just like that, the guy is in charge. He's issuing orders, and the soldiers are bound to obey them. And he's a civilian.
I will concede that Starfleet's structure and organization is distinctly military. Human military, as a matter of fact, sharing many customs and traditions with other military forces. But it's primary focus is exploration, not combat. (For an example of this, look at the Coast Guard. It is a distinctly military organization, but it's not part of the Department of Defence.

So what am I saying? Simply that the Starfleet I've observed over the years in the various series is much more lax than any military organization I've been part of (Electrician's Mate in US Navy; Signal Officer in US Army), which is only to be expected; I mean, how many astrophysicsts and xenobiologists are going to stand for wall-locker inspections? The requirements for a rifle platoon and an exploration vessel are quite different--is it so surprising that the rules and traditions should be different, as well?

BUT there is a core of discipline expected (even of the scientists on board), so if Starfleet, in its bureaucratic wisdom deems that a Vulcan shall be appointed First Officer, entitled to legally exercise the authority of that position, then all hands will be expected to obey her orders as they would any other officer's.

As an officer, I could (and did) delegate my authority to NCOs, to act on my behalf for specific missions or assignments. Under those circumstances, and for that mission, that NCO could tell an officer what to do, because he was speaking for me. His words had the weight of my authority. The need never arose, but I certainly could have delegated my authority to a civilian, for example a technical representative/subject matter expert for a new communications system. I could say "This civilian is in charge of getting the system up and running. Whatever he tells you needs to be done, you do it." Boom. The guy is in charge. He's issuing orders, and the soldiers are bound to obey them. And he's a civilian.

(NOTE: An officer can delegate AUTHORITY. An officer cannot delegate RESPONSIBILITY. Be careful who you give such authority to.)

Captain Janeway did the same thing to Chakotey in 'Voyager'. He was a civilian, but she delegated her authority for him to act on her behalf as First Officer.

Making T'Pol First Officer is as simple as Starfleet giving her the authority to do so.

You cannot have sort of miitary any more than you can be sort of Pregnant. Either you are or you are not and either you are completely military or you are not.

No offense to any zoomies out there, but from where I was sitting, the US Air Force is 'sort of military'. (They're more lax than either the Army or Navy.) And I'll bet some Marines would look at me and say "Hmmph. Sort of military." ['You can always tell a Marine', my dad used to say, 'But you can't tell them much.'] It's all a matter of degree.

I'd say police and fire departments are 'sort of military', to give a couple more examples.

Bottom line: T'Pol as First Officer? I've got no problem with it.