DO YOU LIKE SIM?

[Alelou]

Hmm. What if Vulcans didn't have hymens...

Probably wouldn't matter. Virginity has always got to be more important to the gender that can get pregnant by losing it.

[panyasan]

Hmm. What if Vulcans didn't have hymens...

Probably wouldn't matter. Virginity has always got to be more important to the gender that can get pregnant by losing it.

Maybe strange, but true, it seems like the gender who is capable of making a woman lose her virginity finds it also very important.

[Asso]

And by the way, why is always the female's virginity important? I've never heard anybody talking about Sim, and it's his first time too (technically speaking.)

Escriba, not rarely they are the females who think this, and they are capable of using this very well.
And, believe me, I'm not a male chauvinist, only a male.
And, forgive me Escriba, you used T'Pol's sex exactly in the way the male chauvinists are using - yes, using - women's sex.

[panyasan]

If you grow up in a culture that seems to have strong marriage relationships, claiming your bride, arranged marriages and where bonds can develop when you mate, you can be sure "losing your virginity and intimate relationships" (like the Vulcans call it) is as much as important - I think even much more - then in human culture.

Yeeeaaah... but then again T'Pol was ready to marry a complete stranger (Koss) and then, eventually, have sex with him. Mutual understanding and care were expected or even desired, but not required. So... you know, I'm not so sure.

Believe it or not, the fact that Koss is a stranger and that T'Pol would lose her virginity to him (which she already lost btw to Trip) is not in contrast with the fact that virginity is seen as important. In arranged marriages it doesn't count if you care for some one or have a mutual understanding. It does count that your wife is your wife and no one elses as seen in the eyes of for example Koss. Yes, you can call it hypocritical, but I think a realistic view of arranged marriages as seen in many cultures. Mutual understanding and care develops mostly later in an arranged marriage - hopefully. BTW if you look at this, T'Pol sleeping with Trip is a break with every Vulcan tradition and a big admission - admitted or not - on T'Pols part.

[Escriba]

Ah, don't worry Asso. I understand you.

But that's not what I'm saying (or trying to say.) Sex can be the most important thing or the least important thing. It can mean everything or nothing at all. It can be the most intimate act between two human beings or the most cold one. It's not sex by itself, it's the meaning you give to it. It's not the virginity thing, that really doesn't have any sense if you think about it: where do you put the virginity? On the shelf? Is it an object? It's not about the first time, it's not about the hymen's break, it's about giving yourself. It's about giving your... let's call it "heart" to somebody else. Then and only then, I consider sex important, and for me it's important every time, not just the first (that actually can perfectly not being the "first") but all the ones after it, until the last one.

What puzzles me a little is this sense that you can't do wrong, that if you have relations with the wrong person, that makes you... damaged material, or something like that. This sense of pure, un-stained love that automatically dissapears if you had "a bagagge" behind you.

[Asso]

It's very, very important your first choice, Escriba.
For women.
And for men.
Never... never you will be able to take away this deep meaning, in sex. And in love.
It is inscribed in our chromosomes.

[panyasan]

All this is also a very personal issue, that everybody experiences on his or her own.

[Asso]

Exactly. And because of this I think it should be treated differently from Escriba's story.
She touched a too much personal issue.
Anyway, forgive me, I can't think that the Vulcan T'Pol would have behaved as Escriba's T'Pol.
If it were so... please... do not reprimand me because of the fact that my characters are "out of character".

[Aikiweezie]

Interesting thread. I'm just jumping in now to answer the original question.

Sim's a fine guy, but I don't like the idea of Sim. I also find his ability to grow that fast and mentally develop at that accelarated rate totally unbelievable. Is he made of human tissue or not? If he IS then he can't possibly develop that fast - the systems aren't set up to operate that way. If he is NOT human tissue what is he? Why are his neurons compatible with human Trip? What about the fact that his parts age at such a fast rate? Won't that mean that the transplanted tissue has a shortened life span, too?

I know - probably overanalyzing, but that's what I do.

Also, forgetting the above issues, why did they let him "live a life" and make friends and have experiences? Was that vital to the viability of the tissues for transplant? Why couldn't he have been kept unconscious?

I just found the whole thing kind of creepy.

[Silverbullet]

Arranged Marriages. I have lived in cultures that have arranged marriages and Virginity is VERY important. It was that way too in europe especiaolly among the nobility.

Why? Because the husband A) wanted to make sure his wife had never had Sex with another male but more importantly B) to make sure the first baby out of the chute was his.
That first baby had better be a male otherwise the wife would be watched like a Hawk until she produced a male Heir. These guys wren't going to leave thier Possesions, Kindoms, etc to anyone but their own issue.

So, in the Arab world for instance. The deflowering takes place and the Husband comes out on a balcony to dislay a piece of Sheeps Wool with Blood stains to prove that is wife was indeed virgin. In the Arab world if rthe wife is NOT virgin then by the law the Husband can kill her. Among the lower classes this is adhwered to very closely. Among the wealthy if the marriage was arranged for political or econimc reasons then a vial of sheeps blood would do the trick.

Do vulcans have a Hymen. they may have another way of telling if a female is Virgin. Don't ask me how.

To maNY MALES THEIR WIVES MUST BE vIRGIN BUT THEY WANT TO bALLL EVERY FEMALE THEY MEET BEFORE THEY MARRY.

jUST MY WAY OF THINKING BUT i BELIEVE THAT vIRGINITY IS SO IMPORTANT TO t-pOL THAT SHE WOULD THIK VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE SHE GAVE IT TO ANYONE. aLSO BELIEVE THAT IN THE LoNG RUN tRIP WOUlD BE THE ONE SHE WOULD SELECT TO TAKE HER vIRGINITY. sIM MAY BE A COMPLETE REPLICA OF tRIP BUT HE IS STILL A CLONE AND T-pOL KnOWS THAT.

wHAT DO i KNOW.

BTW, I am not shouting but I accidently hit the Caps lock and I am too lazy to go back and do the text in lowers.

[Silverbullet]

Sorry for the Double post but am trying to send a PM but I cannot put a name in the TO line and if I don't the message won't be sent. What am I doing Wrong?

[Alelou]

It's not that easy to do PMs here. After you get to the compose mail button, you go over to the left where it says "usernames" and you can type it in there but only if you know the exact spelling, otherwise it won't work. So if you don't know it, you'll need to click below that on the left to search through all the listings, which I think are in order of joining, not in alphabetical order. Then once you get the right name up in that little box, you press the button on the lower right of that box, which says something obvious which I can't remember without leaving this post again, and that will put it in the "to" line of your message.

And then just hope the person you're sending it to you checks in, since he or she probably won't get a notification email. I haven't gotten any of those recently.

And re virginity -- yes, the woman's virginity it's also very important to the male -- and exactly right, because he wants to make sure that baby is his and no one else's. The more repressive and traditional the society, the more true this is.

This is why I like the political explanation for Koss's behavior in "Home" -- because in a culture as traditional as Vulcan seems to be in its sexual practices, you'd think all it would take for the wedding to be called off would be the merest suggestion that this human has slept with her. And I would have assumed that kissing him publicly as T'Pol did would at least have raised the question, if having him there in the house with them didn't already. So to my mind Koss and his family must be gritting their teeth to achieve some goal far beyond his marriage -- one important enough to them that it is logical to put up with T'Pol's continuing disrespect.

[Silverbullet]

I too have often thought that all Trip would have to done would be to tell Kosss that he and T-Pol had mated and that he could prove it by a priestly mind meld.

Believe that Koss would tell T-Pol that the wouldn't touch a dishonorable woman who had Sex with a human. That wiould kill the marriage but leave Mama hanging. Probably have t-Pol a tad Pissed at Trip but not enough to break things off.

Suppose trip also tells Mom and she gets out the shotgun and says marry her or else. You have dishonorred her so you have to give some of her respect back.

Since Mom had been "Retired" apparentlyy for some time she would be used to it and probaly could eventually deal with her job loss.

Tnt, of course would have to get oout of town and off Vulcan quick.

Boggles the mind at the possibilities.

[Escriba]

Exactly. And because of this I think it should be treated differently from Escriba's story.
She touched a too much personal issue.
Anyway, forgive me, I can't think that the Vulcan T'Pol would have behaved as Escriba's T'Pol.
If it were so... please... do not reprimand me because of the fact that my characters are "out of character".

No worries, Asso. It's called personal opinion for something. Everybody has one and that makes the world much more interesting.

Anyway, about T'Pol... she's a mess, you know? That's how I picture her and she does like to experiment in very unlike and risky ways *coughcough*Tolaris*coughcough* If there is something that is constant about T'Pol, besides her passive-agressive tendencies, is her compassion and her naïvete. But forgive me, I disgress.

If I must tell the truth, my only concern writting the story was if I should create Sim at all. Taking T'Pol's personality very strictly, she didn't even allow his creation. But nobody has problems with that, everybody has problems with what she does with Sim. I mean, compared to "T'Pol having sex with Trip high on drugs and then ditching him and never suffering any consequences for that," my take is Disney-like. And I'm not saying this in the bad sense, I'm not annoyed or anything. It just puzzles me

[panyasan]

Lots of fic has been devoted about the consequences of her addiction and sleeping with Trip, from different point of view, because lot of people hated it so much and hated what it did to T'Pols character and the TnT-relationship. Maybe you could even say that T'Pol did pay in a way that her relationship with Trip was going downhill after that morning conversation.